Author Topic: California power outages......anyone running on Lister-roid power?  (Read 8599 times)

BruceM

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Re: California power outages......anyone running on Lister-roid power?
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2019, 06:14:41 PM »
My deep well submersible 1/2 hp pump draws 1400 watts running, and 4KW generator will start it readily, as does my 6/1 Listeroid w/ ST-3 head.  Start peak is about 3x running.  This is a 230V pump with both start and run wires.

I think there are gird tie PV controllers that do support isolated operation sans batteries.  That could keep your freezer and refrigerator from a total melt down, and give you some power for cooking. 

glort

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Re: California power outages......anyone running on Lister-roid power?
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2019, 09:44:21 PM »
I wonder if the power co.s will abandon rural residential and small farm service altogether in time, just as phone land lines are being abandoned now.

The profiteering Power co Mongerals have complained here and tried to get extra fees levied against  Low power usage  places.
They argue that they don't make enough money from places like holiday houses or seasonal rental accommodation yet have to maintain supply to that property.
Here in oz they get at least $1 a day "supply" charges as it is.

Also in my last place, they never did a single thing to it specifically in over 30 years. Maintaining the poles and wires in the street is for everyone's benefit and a cost of the power co's doing business.  Their Business is Making  BILLIONS so hard to see why they need to screw anyone any harder.

I think here their downfall on the profit argument will come unstuck  with those that have solar and don't use a lot of power. There is already the whinge that those with solar are unfairly financially burdening those without because they aren't paying their fair share.
How about those paying more do without some of their indulgences and invest the same as others have for the over all benefit and cost savings instead of complaining.

According to our power company's and their shill supporters, People like you Bruce are also making it more expensive and not paying your share by being off grid.  Yes, you are a burden to your neighbours and being unfair by keeping to yourself and doing your own thing. If someone can explain to me logically how someone not using a service is being unfair to those that want to use it, I'll be fascinated to hear it.
Good job you have a car Bruce because if you didn't, You'd be unfair to other car owners as well apparently!   ::)
This is the moronic leftist thinking we have in society these days.

Profit or not, the money grabbing and the mismanagement in power cos seems universal.
I'm thinking rather than not servicing some customers, they are going to try to get it through that you have no option but to be connected..... at your expense of course.

glort

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Re: California power outages......anyone running on Lister-roid power?
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2019, 10:23:04 PM »
  Growth almost always means pain.  Or does pain almost always mean growth?

Only with this is the directors and stockholders bank balance getting fatter.

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I, too, am a bit burned out on the capitalistic model.  Too many victims and not enough winners.  I was in a classroom one day complaining about the profit margin of the local electric company and a couple of people recommended I invest in the corporation and take advantage of myself.

Yeah, a great strategy to divert complaints and criticism. Silence the critics by making them complacent and get in on the scam as well.
Paying people off for their silence is a very old strategy and seems to have adapted to new and socially acceptable forms.


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Of course if only the people of California had the ball diameter of those found in the Oz they would be just fine.

If the crazy ideals of Commifornians weren't a laughing stock the world over, they would be a lot better off.
Mate of mine that lives there can't stand the place and won't be able to get out fast enough. Right now he has a sick mother to take care of but when that's no longer an issue, he's very keen to start the rest of his life in a place he deems sane.

I saw a vid where they were talking about the governor  earlier in the week making a big song and dance about outlawing small plastic Shampoo bottles in hotels as an environmental achievement but then millions of his constituents have no power for days.
Getting priorities right would no doubt be a help.
Maybe he didn't want to rock the boat because he's a shareholder too?

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How big of battery pack would a household need to back up a generator to start a 1/2 hp well pump?

Do half the people in the US use Bore water rather than have town water running to their house?  Having a well ( bore) here is very rare and only used in remote properties and then mainly for non human consumption because the majority of it has too many minerals etc. some is palateable but mainly it's used for stock watering and gardening and the like.
Seems every second house in the US has a Bore and everyone is concerned about running the things.  Here we tend to pump up to tanks so there is always a reserve anyway. 

I would say any generator of about 2000W or more should be able to start them.  They can only have so much initial current draw and that couldn't be anymore than say a fridge or a compressor that also starts under load with help from a capacitor in most cases.

In the case of batteries, you wouldn't need a very big pack at all to start any motor. Batteries have loads of grunt. It's the inverter you'd have to pay attention to because that's what's really supplying the power and has no where near the surge current rating of any battery setup.


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I simply believe that solar panels on most every house and building would solve a lot of problems.

To blight the landscape with solar and especially wind farms when there are millions of unused rooftops in citys where the power is needed is simply criminal corporate greed and a complete hypocrisy of the green ideal supposedly behind it.  They sell it as emissions free and other complete and utter bullshit when it's again nothing but a crutch for corporate greed.

It is totaly illogical except from a profit POV to scar the landscape with these things and then say you are saving the environment and talk about zero emissions when you have just spent 10's of Millions blighting the landscape a bit more with ugly transmission wires taking the power, at a loss, back to where there was endless space to put the panels in the first place.  Wind should just be plain outlawed but is on a downhill run due to it's own inadequacy's anyway.

The future generations like grizzla dumbird moans about are going to look at these things and ask  "WTF did they mess up the whole countryside when they could have put them right in the city where they needed the power and put them on rooftops where they would not have affected natural ecosystems or had any effect on the wildlife or anything else?"

The answer of course like everything else is PROFIT which comes before all else these days.

broncodriver99

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Re: California power outages......anyone running on Lister-roid power?
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2019, 11:05:27 PM »
Do half the people in the US use Bore water rather than have town water running to their house?  Having a well ( bore) here is very rare and only used in remote properties and then mainly for non human consumption because the majority of it has too many minerals etc. some is palateable but mainly it's used for stock watering and gardening and the like.
Seems every second house in the US has a Bore and everyone is concerned about running the things.  Here we tend to pump up to tanks so there is always a reserve anyway. 

I don't know the exact percentages but I would say it is 50/50 and chances are more of the country uses well water than municipal. Another thing is many of the smaller municipalities simply have a distribution system for well water where they have multiple high volume wells that they draw from. There are also areas of the US that still use rain water or snow melt collection and cisterns.

From what I have seen most properties(in rural areas) are developed with a well and septic system and only abandon them if/when a municipality expands it's distribution system and forces the land owner to connect to their system. In most areas if municipal water/sewer is available you HAVE to connect to it, AND PAY. I personally prefer well water. I currently have municipal water and it tastes like Sh*t and often smells like swimming pool water, it didn't used to though. The area I live in has some of the cleanest municipal water on the east coast but the overreaction, and over treatment of water, by many municipalities to things like the fiasco in Flint, Michigan where the municipality essentially poisoned every one they served has given municipal water a sour taste, no pun intended.

dkmc

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Re: California power outages......anyone running on Lister-roid power?
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2019, 11:35:11 PM »

People in Colorado have already gotten arrested for collecting and/or diverting rain water. It's not far off when any solar not connected to the grid or solar 'provider' will be illegal, and any generator running other than an emergency power outage will be illegal. Startup up your Listeroid and get busted by your neighbors. Occupy your bare land (camping, off grid, tiny house) in certain states, without being connected to utilities, illegal. Maybe all these are laws already but no ones told me yet.

mike90045

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Re: California power outages......anyone running on Lister-roid power?
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2019, 07:39:59 AM »
here's a chart from the company that produces many (most) of the motors used in well pumps.
I use a 1/2 hp, 240V 3wire (external capacitor) pump, and my inverter logs it at 1,000w even.  That's counting it's power factor loss.     My 8kw inverter starts it fine, and I think the 6Kw version would have been fine too.
 Engine driven alternator (gensets, not inverter gensets) have a much larger starting capacity than an equal sized inverter can start


glort

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Re: California power outages......anyone running on Lister-roid power?
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2019, 09:34:15 AM »

I don't know the exact percentages but I would say it is 50/50 and chances are more of the country uses well water than municipal.

Interesting.  I never realised.  The water must be a lot better there than here.  Most bore water here is very hard. I remember taking my harley to my cousins wedding in the middle of the state where they have bore water that is drinkable, Just, as town water.  I could not wash the bike without the thing getting white spots all over it.  Cousin explained it was the minerals in the bore water. Washed it again and quickly rinsed it from a drum of spare water I bought with me in case of car trouble.  Was fine then and I was able to dry it as normal without the spots. I was pretty surprised how many dissolved minerals there were in it.

Here our water is pretty good overall.  People do complain but often the bad water can be traced to crappy old pipes.  If the water everywhere else in town is good and yours is not.... Kinda narrows the problem down.


[/QUOTE] From what I have seen most properties(in rural areas) are developed with a well and septic system and only abandon them if/when a municipality expands it's distribution system and forces the land owner to connect to their system. In most areas if municipal water/sewer is available you HAVE to connect to it, AND PAY.[/QUOTE]

From an outsiders POV, the US is a pretty interesting and curious place.
For the land of the Free, in many ways it does not seem you are very free at all in many circumstances. It also seems for a very developed country the US is in many ways very backwards.

Here these days only the smallest and most remote outback towns would be on tank water. Rural properties, yes, many on tank water but would be nothing like 50% of places on tank/ bore water.
It also seems odd that such a country would have such a problem with power supply. Not counting this incidence but nothing for people in suburbia to have a whole house generator in the states where they are only just starting to become available here at a retail level.

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People in Colorado have already gotten arrested for collecting and/or diverting rain water. It's not far off when any solar not connected to the grid or solar 'provider' will be illegal, and any generator running other than an emergency power outage will be illegal. Startup up your Listeroid and get busted by your Neighbors. Occupy your bare land (camping, off grid, tiny house) in certain states, without being connected to utilities, illegal.

This is unheard of here.  Getting arrested for having a rain water tank? WTF? I also -heard- that in some places it is illegal to grow your own vegetables and sell them or even give them to a neighbour or anyone else.  That's like a tradition in Oz. Not so long back nearly every home had a veggie garden and neighbours would even collude as to what they were going to grow so as to be able to exchange with their neighbour what they didn't have themselves.
Wow betide any gubbermint that even hinted you couldn't give vegetables to your neighbour or friends!
It's a legal REQUIREMENT  in every state far as I'm aware, that you MUST have a water tank on any new or largely renovated property.

MANY people have blocks of land they put an old shack or caravan on as a weekender holiday place.  Many you may need a building permit or may not be allowed to put a permanent living structure on but for short/ Holiday stays, not a problem.  There is so much land here that's not good for anything else. you can't graze or farm it, what else can you do with otherwise useless land?  You build a Humpy, put in some corrugated iron tanks, Dig a shitter,  maybe bathe in the creek and set up a rough kitchen and think you are in paradise!

There are a lot of things you can do in the US that just wouldn't be attempted here like drive an unregistered car round the streets  but there are so many other things that seem such basic rights/ ways of life to us that are not permitted in the US. We still can't get over the fact you can't drink till you are 21.  Legal age is 18 here and it's policed heavily to stop the 16yo's getting into bars.  Of course I was going anywhere I wanted at 15 and back then I was NEVER questioned or asked for ID.  Couldn't get away with that now.

broncodriver99

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Re: California power outages......anyone running on Lister-roid power?
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2019, 03:30:28 PM »
Interesting.  I never realised.  The water must be a lot better there than here.  Most bore water here is very hard. I remember taking my harley to my cousins wedding in the middle of the state where they have bore water that is drinkable, Just, as town water.  I could not wash the bike without the thing getting white spots all over it.  Cousin explained it was the minerals in the bore water. Washed it again and quickly rinsed it from a drum of spare water I bought with me in case of car trouble.  Was fine then and I was able to dry it as normal without the spots. I was pretty surprised how many dissolved minerals there were in it.

Here our water is pretty good overall.  People do complain but often the bad water can be traced to crappy old pipes.  If the water everywhere else in town is good and yours is not.... Kinda narrows the problem down.

Yes, well water here is usually very good quality. Sometimes it is hard(mineral) but that is easily treatable with a water conditioner. Around here we have shallow wells and artesian wells. Most of the time there is good quality water in a shallow well about 30-35 ft down. In some cases there is a necessity to go deeper with an artesian well of several hundred ft. Well depth varies depending on what part of the country one is in. In the mountainous areas springs are common.

I don't think the US has a problem with power supply. Here on the east coast our grid has been rock solid for as long as I can remember with the only notable outages being due to natural disaster ie. hurricanes. We do get the random outage from severe thunderstorms but it is usually short lived being an hour or less. Our energy supplier is regulated by the state and is required to spend a certain amount on infrastructure per year to prevent problems like they are experiencing in California. I have no doubt that the issues in California are in part due to corporate greed but also of their own doing.

Speaking of natural disasters, that is the biggest driving force behind the average American having a back up generator and some semblance of a plan for self sufficiency. Every part of the country battles severe weather of some sort. Here on the east coast it is hurricanes and tornadoes, in the midwest it is tornadoes, and on the west coast it is flooding and wild fires. Don't get me wrong, there is a huge part of the population that has no plan for anything but many do.

From an outsiders POV, the US is a pretty interesting and curious place.
For the land of the Free, in many ways it does not seem you are very free at all in many circumstances. It also seems for a very developed country the US is in many ways very backwards.

Here these days only the smallest and most remote outback towns would be on tank water. Rural properties, yes, many on tank water but would be nothing like 50% of places on tank/ bore water.
It also seems odd that such a country would have such a problem with power supply. Not counting this incidence but nothing for people in suburbia to have a whole house generator in the states where they are only just starting to become available here at a retail level.

A lot of it is the differences in the continents and population density. Isn't most of Australia's population fairly concentrated in certain coastal area's? Here, a population roughly 13.5 times that of Australia, 330M vs 25M, uses the entire land area roughly 1.25 times the area of Australia, 3.8 Million square miles vs 3 Million. It comes down to logistics and cost effectiveness. In a lot of parts of the country what it would cost a municipality to run water service to rural areas would take longer than the life expectancy of the infrastructure to recoup the expense. And, that is assuming the municipality has a water source sufficient enough to serve their area which isn't always the case.

This is unheard of here.  Getting arrested for having a rain water tank? WTF? I also -heard- that in some places it is illegal to grow your own vegetables and sell them or even give them to a neighbour or anyone else.  That's like a tradition in Oz. Not so long back nearly every home had a veggie garden and neighbours would even collude as to what they were going to grow so as to be able to exchange with their neighbour what they didn't have themselves.
Wow betide any gubbermint that even hinted you couldn't give vegetables to your neighbour or friends!
It's a legal REQUIREMENT  in every state far as I'm aware, that you MUST have a water tank on any new or largely renovated property.

MANY people have blocks of land they put an old shack or caravan on as a weekender holiday place.  Many you may need a building permit or may not be allowed to put a permanent living structure on but for short/ Holiday stays, not a problem.  There is so much land here that's not good for anything else. you can't graze or farm it, what else can you do with otherwise useless land?  You build a Humpy, put in some corrugated iron tanks, Dig a shitter,  maybe bathe in the creek and set up a rough kitchen and think you are in paradise!

There are a lot of things you can do in the US that just wouldn't be attempted here like drive an unregistered car round the streets  but there are so many other things that seem such basic rights/ ways of life to us that are not permitted in the US. We still can't get over the fact you can't drink till you are 21.  Legal age is 18 here and it's policed heavily to stop the 16yo's getting into bars.  Of course I was going anywhere I wanted at 15 and back then I was NEVER questioned or asked for ID.  Couldn't get away with that now.

Don't believe the hype. Rain water collection is pretty common everywhere. There have been cases where some crunchy hippie type has decided to move into the suburbs and disconnect from public utilities in an attempt to live off of the land.  ::) That is where rain catchment, generator power, and sewage come into question. There are some basic standards intended to protect the general public health that are required for the sake of everyone. I tend to agree with most of them. I will say that I definitely don't want my neighbor 40 ft away showering with rain water in their back yard and shitting in an outhouse or 5 gallon bucket. That is the type scenario where these stories come from and they then get used as propaganda for whatever plight someone is trying to protest.

In some areas rain water catchment has become mandatory. Not for use but because with population growth the municipal sewer/storm drain systems are getting overwhelmed. Holding cisterns are being installed below grade to catch rain water until it can percolate into the soil instead of going down the municipal storm drain.

Colorado is an interesting case study. Until about 15 years ago it was a very conservative rural area but has now been inundated by a bunch of hippie type thinkers mainly from California that have definitely changed the status quo. It is definitely creating some issues and changing the way things are done. That is how some of these stories have come about. They are not the norm but a particular instance with an unknown set of circumstances that precipitated a particular outcome. Usually occurring after much interaction between the community, local government, and who knows who else for who knows what reasons.

I am sure there have been cases where local government has overstepped it's authority and one hopes those situations get resolved in court. I have heard of instances where a citizen has sued and been awarded monetary damages where the local government has overstepped.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 03:33:35 PM by broncodriver99 »

BruceM

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Re: California power outages......anyone running on Lister-roid power?
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2019, 04:19:17 PM »
My Franklin 1/2 HP deep well pump (3 wire, 230V)  runs as rated at 1385VA.  I expect a shallow well version might be different.  I can only dream of water at 35 feet, my standing water level is down at 200ft. The water is quite good for Arizona, which still means very hard.  Its is just good enough to avoid using water softener, etc., which is a big plus for power conservation.

On the issue of inverter surge capability; this varies greatly by design type, and by how much marketing optimism has been applied in the rating process. The old low frequency transformer sine designs such as the long venerated Trace SW series were noted for great motor starting capacity in an era where inverter life was notoriously short.  I use that same basic SW design approach for my 5 step sine inverter using two H-bridges and two 1000W transformers with secondaries in series to shape the sine.  The SW used 3 transformers and high speed switching to make up to 32 steps. I kept just enough steps to get THD down below generators (12%), which lets me use soft (slow) switching to reduce conducted EMI greatly while still having 92% efficiency.  It's designed for 1500W max continuous load.  Because I'm using high permeability core toroidal transformers, and under-rated my soft switching H-bridges,  it starts any motor with 1500W or less for running.  Start surge just doesn't matter.

The high frequency designs vary, but few can touch the surge capability of the old "heavy iron" low frequency Trace SW series. 

Hugh Conway

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Re: California power outages......anyone running on Lister-roid power?
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2019, 06:41:43 PM »
Up here, everyone has a well. shallow or deep (bores to those Ozians) Ours is 500 ft with the pump at 300 ft.
The 3/4 HP 240V submersible pump runs easily using either the 4000W inverter or the listeroid spinning a 3kw PMG. Water quality varies greatly depending on location in what is really a small area. Our immediate neighbour has sulphur water at a similar depth whereas our water is very fine. The wells are about 600 ft apart. We do collect rainfall and gravity feed it for garden use, saves a lot of energy.
There is commercial power available in our area, but we have abandoned it several years ago due to it's unreliability during winter storms (and in summer for no apparent reason) and the forced introduction of "smart meters".
The quality of big box generators seems to vary considerably. I have witnessed a brand new 5kw unit fail to start a 1/2hp shallow well pump that was easily run by a 3kw generator of different make and quality. Our old gas powered Honda 4.5kw gen would comfortably run the 3/4hp deep well pump.
Regarding restrictions on rain water collection, that's certainly not the situation here in west coast Canada, but I do have friends down in California where it can be a quite different story. At their remote location, rain water collection is illegal. They still do it via underground cisterns so no-one has noticed. They also have a creek with a very small dam which was used for their water supply. 2 years ago, a large rainfall washed out the 100 year old dam, now they are prohibited from rebuilding.
No legal dam, nor legal rainwater collection. The water table is so far down that it is not economically feasible to drill a well.
Once again the city dwellers in the state capitol making rules for situations about which they are clueless.
We don't have too many rules here as yet, but the bureaucrats are trying to make up for lost time. Last year they attempted to outlaw any construction within 50 feet of the shoreline. It IS an ISLAND for god's sake, how we access the boats necessary for island life? Even the ferry dock would have been illegal!
Cheers
Hugh
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Re: California power outages......anyone running on Lister-roid power?
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2019, 09:24:22 PM »
Nice to see you back Glort always good reading material.

veggie

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Re: California power outages......anyone running on Lister-roid power?
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2019, 01:55:16 AM »
PG&E is stuck between a rock and a hard place.
If they leave the power turned on and a fire starts, they get sued for billions $$$.

If they turn the power off, they are the bad guys.

I think their legal department had a say in this action.
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veggie

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Re: California power outages......anyone running on Lister-roid power?
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2019, 02:03:41 AM »

Regarding restrictions on rain water collection, that's certainly not the situation here in west coast Canada, but I do have friends down in California where it can be a quite different story. At their remote location, rain water collection is illegal. They still do it via underground cisterns so no-one has noticed. They also have a creek with a very small dam which was used for their water supply. 2 years ago, a large rainfall washed out the 100 year old dam, now they are prohibited from rebuilding.
No legal dam, nor legal rainwater collection. The water table is so far down that it is not economically feasible to drill a well.


Hugh, California is so messed up it's beyond funny. It's totally ridiculous.
BTW ... a 500 ft Well, thats quite deep. Must cost a fortune to drill. Makes me appreciate my 125 ft Well with a static level at 25 ft.  :D

cheers,
Veggie
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glort

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Re: California power outages......anyone running on Lister-roid power?
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2019, 05:04:40 AM »

The thing with the power being on and causing fires comes back to the company. Never heard of turning power off here and we have loads of bush, wind,,high temps and power lines.
One then is left wondering if it does not happen here, why is it happening there?

From what i have seen, little question its a self made problem through neglect of infrastructure.

BruceM

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Re: California power outages......anyone running on Lister-roid power?
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2019, 05:11:06 AM »
I think it's hilarious we've got a Canadian and an Australian whining about California. I suspect neither has ever lived there. I lived there for a year.  CA has only one problem, and that's that too many people want to live there, so the cost of living is insane.  It sorta proves that the whiners are out to lunch.

As soon as I recovered enough after a medical program there to be able to drive again safely, I came back to AZ.  I couldn't afford just the property taxes on a home there, and I certainly couldn't afford "elbow room" real estate.  There was a rush on land here some years ago, nearly doubling our land prices as middle class Californian's cashed out of their inflated homes there and retired here. 

I'd prefer if we just called a big Whoa! on the breeding and growth, growth, growth.  7 billion is way more than enough.