Author Topic: Grouting Question  (Read 8707 times)

Rtqii

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Grouting Question
« on: August 06, 2006, 03:10:02 AM »

When I've done this, I set the engine (base, whatever) on little wood strips - maybe 3/4 inch high.  Then you have plenty of space into which you work/pour the grout.

OK... I have seen inertia block foundations being poured, and I have seen grouted equipment mounted on the blocks... But I have never grouted equipment, nor have I seen anyone else grout equipment... And this leaves me in the dark and raises my question on this topic.

Obviously you cannot set the equipment down on the foundation block directly and grout under it. Is it my understanding then that the archor bolts are placed, the equipment is then set over the anchor bolts, and then supported by something, such as wood, the equipment is leveled, and then the grout is worked under the mounts?

That seems to be the only way to do the job correctly.

Those wood strips refered to... Are they removed at some point after the grout cures? Do you just grout over it?

Let's say I pour an isolation block and decided to mount the engine, without skid, directly to the block... Removing the skid also removes some of the flex and it seems to me it would result in a more solid mount... So I would shim up the engine base over the block using say a few strips of wood, make sure it is all square and level on the block and that the anchor bolts are all seated in the pre-cast holes in the inertia block and centered in the engine lug mounts... Then build a small form to contain the pour of grout, and work grout into the anchor bolt holes, and continue pouring until the grout comes up flush with the top edge of the engine lugs...

You just leave the wood in there then?

hotater mentioned the need for a catch pan and a drain... Since the engine will be elevated by the foundation block, I think the thing for me to do would be to form a depression in the wet grout to make a catch pan, and cast in a short drain pipe from the low end of the resulting depression to the outer edge of the block. Then paint the cured grout with epoxy to seal it against oil and fuel.

I don't think they grout wood under commerical jobs tho and just leave it behind.

Can anybody clarify this for me?

GIII

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Re: Grouting Question
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2006, 03:57:00 AM »
The proceedure is to set the engine in position and level it with wedges, I would use small steel wedges, near the mounting bolts.  Adjust the wedges until all is as good as you intend and tighten the bolts so nothing can move.  There should be a small gap under the engine, maybe as much as 3/8" when this is done.  Now make up some wooden forms that are somewhat larger than the base of the engine at a minimum or out to the edge of the concrete if you like.  These forms should be high enough that the grout will finish up the side of the engine base casting a little. Seal the bottom edge of the form with silicone or putty so the grout won't leak out.  To keep the forms from floating weight the corners with something heavy but leave enough room to work.  Now pour the grout into the form and make sure it flows under the engine base and in 30 to 45 minutes it will be hard enough to pull the forms off.  It will firmly set in a couple of days.  You could pour it thick enough to landscape a catch pan as you indicated if desired.  The wedges are in there for the duration and are part of the support so use something first class.

Doug

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Re: Grouting Question
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2006, 04:24:30 AM »
I've seen the IM's where I work do this. Often they finnish up with some shims. Is this because they screwed the level or is this normal?

Doug

Rtqii

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Re: Grouting Question
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2006, 04:56:45 AM »
Good question Doug... It seems to me that if you grouted in correctly, you don't need shims afterwards. The grout is shimming.

The whole purpose of grouting is to provide a mount that is contoured to the equipment mounts. If you have a mount that is cast specifically for a piece of equipment... Why would you have to shim it?

I have seen this type work a few times (never looked as closely as I should have and studied it tho)... But I don't recall ever seeing shims used on grouted equipment.

Doug

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Re: Grouting Question
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2006, 05:18:12 AM »
They shim everything the motors, the pumps and the cast base. Maybe I'm not looking close enough but I think those are shims they used not wedges. I'll try and get photos....

Doug

Rtqii

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Re: Grouting Question
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2006, 05:33:48 AM »
If they are shimming everything, I don't understand how they could be grouting anything.  It sounds to me like what they are doing is setting the equipment on the cast block, shimming, and torquing the anchor bolts down without using grout.

GIII

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Re: Grouting Question
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2006, 01:58:10 PM »
Shims can be used under the base instead of wedges but usually require much more fiddling time to get correct.  With wedges, and these wedges are maybe 1/4" thick, just tap it in until all is OK.  Either way the grout covers it all up and supports the base.

Jim Mc

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Re: Grouting Question
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2006, 04:16:12 PM »

When I've done this, I set the engine (base, whatever) on little wood strips - maybe 3/4 inch high.  Then you have plenty of space into which you work/pour the grout.


Those wood strips refered to... Are they removed at some point after the grout cures? Do you just grout over it?

Let's say I pour an isolation block and decided to mount the engine, without skid, directly to the block... Removing the skid also removes some of the flex and it seems to me it would result in a more solid mount... So I would shim up the engine base over the block using say a few strips of wood, make sure it is all square and level on the block and that the anchor bolts are all seated in the pre-cast holes in the inertia block and centered in the engine lug mounts... Then build a small form to contain the pour of grout, and work grout into the anchor bolt holes, and continue pouring until the grout comes up flush with the top edge of the engine lugs...

You just leave the wood in there then?


I don't think they grout wood under commerical jobs tho and just leave it behind.



Probably right - there are techniques that would not leave the wood behind.  But I can't see what harm leaving 4 small pieces of wood will do.  In the case of grouting the engine block directly to the foundation, there's several hundred square inches of contact area.  A few wood strips aren't going to have a measurable effect.  Maybe I'm missing the point, but what harm do you see in leaving the wood behind?  Keep in mind, I meant to use small wood pieces - totaling 10 square inches or so.  I considered using steel spacers,  but decided to use wood because I know there's no way the spacers will ever become "pressure points" over the life of the system.  Some grouts are supposed to expand a bit as they set, but with this idea, I didn't need to rely on that.

I see no need for 'shims' of any kind if this is done properly.  The wood blocks simply act as spacers until the grout sets.

I certainly don't claim to be Dr. Grout, but I have done this one time in mounting a stationary engine, and it worked fine for me.

slowspeed1953

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Re: Grouting Question
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2006, 05:12:08 PM »
When you guys refer to grout do you mean tile grout or something else?

Best wishes

Jim Mc

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Re: Grouting Question
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2006, 05:26:43 PM »
Grout, as used here, means a mixture of sand, portland cement, and water - mixed to a batter-like consistency.  I think tile grout is basically the same, though since I don't know exactly what's in it, I wouldn't use it.

Plenty of other recipes too, epoxy-based, etc. 

slowspeed1953

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Re: Grouting Question
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2006, 06:09:50 PM »
Thanks Jim

Best wishes

Rtqii

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Re: Grouting Question
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2006, 08:34:44 PM »
Good info, thanks guys  8)

As to types of grout... The simplest is as stated above... 50/50 sand + cement mix with water to form a pourable batter that will flow under the equipment base, into anchor bolt holes etc.

The more sophisticated grouts are expanding. I think one of the first expanding grouts used iron or steel filings as an additive. Then came other expansion agents and compositions.

The latest and "greatest" is epoxy based grout which actually shrinks a bit as it cures. The shrinking in this case is seen as a good thing because if the equipment base is clean the epoxy bonds to the cast iron base and pulls it down as it shrinks.  It is also more flexible than concrete based grouts and when used for anchor bolt holes allows the bolts to stretch and flex which reduces the incidents of stress related failure. Anchor bolts that are cast directly into the foundation block shear or snap at the surface more frequently unless the bolt mount makes some provision for flex and stretch. One tip I read on cast in anchor bolts was to slip a piece of PVC pipe over the end of the bolt preventing the foundation cement from bonding to the threads for an inch or two below the surface of the pour.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2006, 08:57:47 PM by Rtqii »

hotater

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Re: Grouting Question
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2006, 10:41:46 PM »
 I'm still cogitating on exactly how I'm going to do it (soon).  Maybe writing about it will help.

At Geneva steel the anchor bolts were cast into the concrete with flat plate welded to the bottom and cardboard tubes around them down about two feet (ten foot deep foundation).

 The tubes were held up at the bottom by a nut and a big washer and at the top by another washer, then a nut then another washer and cardboard spacer about two inches long, then another washer,  and then a steel plate about a foot square and an inch thick.  The concrete was poured to within eight inches of the top and allowed to set.  The machine (or more often a fabricated flat patterns) were set in place and leveled with the nuts below.  Then grout was poured so that the mounting plates were barely 'proud'.

The above from a Millwright there for 32 years.  The above was a 'standard'  foundation for rolling stands and most  were twelve feet wide and twenty long with twelve two inch diameter mounting bolts.

 He says notice the machine is "supported by cardboard but held down by the mounting bolts."    That means there's nearly two inches of 'take-up' room in each mounting bolt by crushing the cardboard of the cardboard spacer.   That puts tension loading on a LOT of mounting bolt.  He says  DON'T mount a machine between two nuts on a threaded section of mounting bolt.  It'll break between the nuts.

The grout handles the load and transmits it from the steel of the crankcase to the steel of the mounting plate to the grout and to the concrete foundation. 

For my Lister,  the platform will be 2x5 feet and 30 inches deep with a wider footprint at the bottom.  It'll be poured insulated from the existing slab and will stand a foot higher than the surrounding floor.  The top three inches will be grout. 
   I'll  simplify the steel support pads used at Geneva with two parralel pieces of 3x6x1/2" angle iron frame suspended on eight 3/4" mounting bolts.  The engine uses four and the frame for the genhead bolts uses the other four....or the whole unit could be reversed, or two engines mounted together....more options is also good.   The spacing will be right for dual engines and enough drilled and tapped holes in the frame to accomodate most anything!    ;)

I'll weld a sheetmetal drip 'funnel' between the angles and weld in a spout that will be cast into the grout.  Sounds like a GOOD plan to me!

It'll be easy to cast the bottom of the long angle iron legs about half in concrete and level and flatten the whole works with the adjustment nuts before it sets up.  That means the steel portion of the mount is already stationary but it still hasn't taken a load before the final grouting to further stabalize it.

Then wait two weeks!!??  :o :o

7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

GIII

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Re: Grouting Question
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2006, 03:22:02 AM »
http://www.targetproducts.com/   look for machine base grout

rsnapper

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Re: Grouting Question
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2006, 06:50:07 AM »
The machinists where I work use a product called Choc Fast or Chock Fast to grout under stuff.
Rick