Oil Filter!!

[BruceM]

I'm now ready to implement a filter in my splash lube Metro 6/1.
The breather door is of course much bigger, but has very little crank clearance (3/4"), and is not in the direction of the dipper rotation.

The dipstick door is smaller but has lots of clearance (2") for a deep basket type filter.  I was thinking of making a "hoop" and bag wider than the door, which can be easily detached and pulled out longways for removal.

Or should I make a very skinny filter for the big door?

Your thoughts shipchief, hotater? 
Bruce

[Joe]

This unique filter needs a name…taking into account what I believe is its origin and to give credit its due:
1. Hot Springs Door Filter
2. Hotater Inspection Door Screen
3. Hotater Pocket Filter
4. Belk Filter

Any other ideas?

Joe

[rpg52]

Hotater Sludge Catcher
Jack's Pocket Filter
Hot Springs Crud Screen
Hotater Pocket Sieve
Any combination of any of any of the names recombined in a unique and catchy way.

I would hope Hotater has a sense of humor about this terrific invention and advance in Listeroid low-technology. 
Ray

[hotater]

Magic Pocket? 

I'm honored, but I think that was just the first example of what serious brainstorming between a bunch of crafty, innovative, creative and determined folks that hang around together can achieve.  Chalk one up for the Board.   

 It's not really a 'filter's filter', more of an impediment to migration of large objects.   

I washed mine yesterday by sloshing it around in fuel and inventorying what fell out...some castings just keep ON giving up their grit.   

I'm beginning to think the low stresses in the engine allows it run on what would wreck anything else.  My bearing are just as scored and pitted now as they were a long time ago, but the crank is smooth and there's no knock.  If it ain't broke, (or yellin' it's going to) DON'T mess with it!

[SHIPCHIEF]

I suggested the filter be placed on the breather door (inspection door) because the oil would be comming over the top of the crankshaft and headed down into the filter media. Based on what George B told me, I designed the pocket you see on the coppermine gallery.
Jack chose the ultimate in simplicty, and judging by his picture, bent the filter bottom so it would be close to the crank / rod to take the full impact of oil after it was accelerated over the crank by the 'windage'. Who knows? It might also be a power adding "Crank Scraper" like Hot Rodders talk about?
I particulary liked jack's comment on the ease of servicing, because you open this door to clean the sump when changing oil, so the filter is now sitting on the work bench just because you took the door off. I haven't run my filter setup yet, I just got my crankcase back from the hot tank, but it still needs alot more work before I start loading the guts back in.
Jack, I'm wondering what the oil in the bottom of the sump looked like?
Also, could you summarize the effect the filter is having? Is it cleaning up the oil? Does the sump seem any cleaner on the bottom when you squeegie out the oil at change time? Does the oil have less entrained moisture?
My old Lister manual suggests oil changes at 500 hours, whereas the ASHWAMEGH manual says 250 hours. Could the filter help extend the interval? Or do Listeroids only hold half as much oil?
Bruce suggests placing the filter in the small door under the cam. My twin does not have a door there, so I never thought of it.
George B says many old listers had these filters inside the sump, so It's nothing new, just a good idea revisited.

[BruceM]

Thanks for your oil flow analysis, Shipchief, that was very helpful.  I had a thought this evening after googling some "oil filter media", most of which was pleated paper.

On the dipstick door I have enough room to support a cut 2" section out of a deeply pleated paper air filter. This would already have plastic/rubber sealed edges, and a deeply pleated paper filter about  4" wide, 3.5" deep pleats.   I could get maybe 12 or more  of these sections out of one big round filter like the one in my '85 MB 300D, so they'd be cheap.  I'm thinking of setting the filter section in a bottom-perforated steel box.  I'd just toss the old, put in a new section.  Just needs some sort of hold down clasp or overlaying rod.  The box could hold 2 or 3 sections of filter.

I'll have to measure more closely on the breather door to see if I could do something similar (but much thinner) there. 

Is paper air filter media OK as a paper oil filter?  Any filter media knowledge out there?

Best Wishes,
Bruce McCreary
Snowflake, AZ

[BruceM]

I can rarely resist stealing a great idea and trying to improve on it. Hotater's oil filter is clearly ingenious Here's an attempt at a far more complicated to construct version that may provide greater fine particulate filtering.  No engine run tests yet, so time will tell how it works out.
 
I put some photos of my prototype oil filter housing in the Coppermine:

http://listerengine.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?pos=-104
http://listerengine.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?pos=-106
http://listerengine.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?pos=-105

 It's mounted flush with the lower edge of the breather door opening.  It has a lip shaped to be a bit of a crank scraper (clears the crank by 3/8"), though admittedly that's probably limited as it's on the wrong side of the crank rotation.  The can is 3.75" deep, 6" across, 2.5" projection into the crank at the (larger) holed bottom.  The nuts on the bolts were just there to hold the bolts in place overnight while the epoxy steel sets up.  I'll use some silicone to make a permanent gasket of sorts on the surface where the nuts are now, and a slice of nitrile 1/4" fuel tubing behind a lock nut to seal off the through holes in the block.  The bolts have to be that deep inside the filter box to clear the breather door flange.

I did some media testing with a stopwatch and a holey bottomed can to see what kind of media would give adequate flow.  I was surprised to find that even with 50 degree oil (multviscosity) I was getting 30-40 second drain time through 100 TPI copper mesh and paper towels (quilted type). Much faster flow with greater depth of oil- just 3" deep flows very well. Toilet paper is much slower but also acceptable.  So it appears that virtually any media, including odd socks would be fine.  I plan to use the 100 TPI copper at least at the bottom so stray fibers don't pass through.

I next need to do some in engine testing to see how quickly it fills up, and if it makes a difference in the amount of "airborne" oil by watching running oil level with the bottom holes taped off.   With a quart of oil following the crank, I don't expect a problem in oil supply into the filter.  I'll be able to monitor "airborne" oil amount by watching my new oil sight tube.

These Listers sure are fun to play with, and it's great to have this forum for inspiration, help and a place to show our projects, too.

Bruce McCreary
Metro 6/1
Snowflake, AZ

[Procrustes]

BruceM -- you're going to run out of innovations pretty soon at this rate.

[SHIPCHIEF]

No,
I think Bruce has a fertile mind. We look forward to new enhancements to an old engine design
Scott E
PS Soon I'll post a few too.

[quinnf]

You know, at this point, I think one of us HAS TO make a plexiglass crankcase door for the filter to bolt to temporarily so we can get some idea of what's going on in there.  I'm heading to Wisconsin for a week on biz, so it can't be me.  Don't forget to allow for the breather!

Quinn

[Joe]

I have the polycarbonate (plexiglass) to send to anyone with an engine and decent capability to capture the info so that it can be posted. The material is .25" and I can cut to size as needed. It still has paper on both sides and is very clear.
I just don't have the time...I'm still working on my Y2K projects.....

Joe

[SHIPCHIEF]

Jack;
You have now been running the oil filter for quite a few hours. How many?  How is it going?
Can you tell any difference in the cleanliness of the oil at oil change time? Is there less goop in the bottom when you squeejee the sump?
Is the oil still sorting into a dark layer at the bottom, and a cleaner layer on top?
Is the filter media still picking up alot of carbon / paint chips / water / engine bits and pieces?
Can you run more hours between oil changes?
I read your post about changing to multi vis oil...I wonder if it will clean the engine more and put the strippings in the filter?
Scott E

[hotater]

  I waited for several days waiting for the last of the solvents in the 'filter medium' to evaporate and look at the last one under the scope.

I cut a black, greasy, mess of old washcloth/Lister filter into four pieces and experimented with different solvent bathes trying to sort out whatever got caught as the oil went through.  It's mostly 'goop'.

Goop seems to be a fine 'clay' mixture of oil, soot, and water.  When 'goop' is wiped off the terry cloth the cloth then absorbs petro solvents.  Coleman fuel seems to be the best rinsing medium but it takes thirty washings to get to semi-clear rinse medium. "Goop" is soluble in alcohol and captures a surprizing amount of light-weight solids.   There must be a surface tension thing going on.

After 300 hours of running I found most of the solids stuck in the fabric by microscopic exam but some were washed out and gathered and sorted by 'panning' and looked at under several lights and magnifications.  My engine is still shedding sand and paint flakes but it's mostly unidentified 'fines'.  What's neat to see embedded far down in a soggy towel or swirling with the fines with the bright lights of the stereo microscope shining in two directions, is the occasional flake of bronze from the pinion gear!

The filter is undoubtably working very well until 'goop' seals the fabric, but I don't know how long that is.   

I'm so busy right now I'm satified to catch some and bypass the rest until I can catch up.   

[SHIPCHIEF]

Wow!
Thanks for the update. I wonder if the GOOP would go away if the oil could run hot enough?
I hope you get out to the road before you run out of food or fuel!
Scott E