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Author Topic: Tesla  (Read 6050 times)

mikenash

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Tesla
« on: August 05, 2019, 07:24:07 PM »
Hey Glort I thought you might be interested in this as an example of ownership costs for one of these

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhbD44jXffY

LowGear

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Re: Tesla
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2019, 06:20:37 PM »
Elon Fanboy Here!

Owning a part of a paradigm change will always have it's costs.  Diving the most advanced automobile in the world will also have costs.  Let's face it "Nice stuff costs more!" "The best is never cheap".

And you're not poisoning everyone you pass or your very safe passengers.  Is it true they're the safest production cars in the world?

The real innovation of the Tesla brand is their network updates.  They figure out a better way to do things on Tuesday and a couple of weeks later every unit that is compatible is updated rather than the owner being encouraged to buy the new and improved model or schedule a recall update appointment with the dealer.

Tesla's charging system will keep Tesla alive for many, many years.

I'm playing with a Fiat 500e and only dream of a Tesla.  My 4,000 miles a year on two different chunks of land make an expensive automobile out of any real question.  The Fiat is fast (up to 70 MPH) and drives really nice and is easy to drive as most small cars are without the giant hood to house the 19th century power supply.  I think there may be more moving parts in an ICE six than in an entire Tesla.

I'm wondering how the big battery experiment is going?  I hear they're going to save Australia from it's failure to plan for the 21st century.
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mikenash

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Re: Tesla
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2019, 09:07:09 PM »
IMHO. What we Missing here - regardless of whether were fanboys or haters - is what this 450,000 mile maintenance cost record tells us.

He says $0.06 a mile all up. Maybe hes fudged a few numbers or maybe he hasnt?

But if that car is compared with a luxury car of comparable size with a petrol engine Id guess it would do about 30MPG. With gas at $2.05 here - thats $0.33  per mile for gas alone

Regardless of arguments about who paid for what - those are the numbers Id be focusing on

veggie

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Re: Tesla
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2019, 01:51:34 AM »

I like the "Idea" of an EV, but current calculations show that over the live of the vehicle they are more carbon intensive that conventional cars.
(When we factor in the mining of the rare earth metals that go into the motors and the disposal of the used batteries.)
As far as exhaust emissions, the EV's are just shifting the combustion away from the vehicle and over to a coal fired (or natural gas fired) generating facility. Over time the power grid will have to grow immensely to accommodate the power demand. Grid growth will demand a huge amount of metal mining (wire) and fossil fuels to to implement. In more remote places like some of the Hawaiian islands (Maui for example) the combustion process is shifted from gasoline (in the car) over to to the three large oil fired generators on the island.
Solar can charge cars too as long as the sun shines and the solar array in big enough.
Maybe the world needs a mix of all types of locomotion and power generation to lessen the load on any single source.
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BruceM

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Re: Tesla
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2019, 04:57:09 AM »
Tesla doesn't use rare earth magnets in their motors-  they are variable speed 3 phase induction motors; copper and steel.  That's been public knowledge since their introduction.
The cobalt in the batteries have been reduced substantially in the newer versions. 

I don't think Tesla is going away, and they are selling their drivetrains and batteries to other companies.  Their battery management hardware is presently the best in the world. 





« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 05:08:25 AM by BruceM »

AdeV

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Re: Tesla
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2019, 08:33:36 AM »
People also go on about batterys getting cheaper. I find that laughable and ignorant. 

With all due respect - I vehemently disagree. Consider - battery technology was rapidly developed in the late C19th, and almost completely stalled in the early C20th with the rise and rise of the internal combustion engine. It's only in the late C20th that interest in batteries started to revive - mainly because of these newfangled mobile/cell phone things, and the advent of laptops. Battery research and technology is now at a fever pitch, and is only going to get bigger as the market grows. More potential sales $ = more research = better, smaller (size... bigger capacity), faster.

If one looks beyond the media hype, Current tech batteries in Lipo etc have already fallen all they are going to through production and scaling.  The resources to make them are limited,

Agreed - lithium has a finite lifetime as a battery tech. It's served us well, much like leaded petrol did in the early days of the petrol engine, and now it's time is drawing to an end. Alternative chemistries are being researched now; some (many) will prove to be impractical for one reason or another, but it only takes one or two to beat LiPO, and the job's done.

And yes, yes, before you say it: There's a massive difference between R&D/lab scale experiments, than a commercial quality offering, but the demand IS there now; the demand is ONLY going to get higher; and DEMAND is what will drive the R&D into commercialisation. It may not be the best tech that wins (see VHS vs. Betamax), but whatever tech comes through will be good enough.


The argument about generation and delivery capacity..... yeah, well, that's a whole different gether all to twist.
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mikenash

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Re: Tesla
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2019, 09:01:20 AM »
What's Betamax and VHS grandad? lol  I can hear my kids now

PLus , of course, we have 85%+ renewable power here with our hydro and wind - so my viewpoint is biased because of that

mike90045

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Re: Tesla
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2019, 03:07:05 PM »
Geothermal power.  They keep trying, but the dissolved minerals plug up the works very quickly.  Under heat and pressure, they stay in solution, but as you  extract energy (heat exchanges, direct to turbine) the works get gummed up.   The Geysers thermal plant near me in Northern Calif, is more of a way for the utility to play and say they are using green power, but it's often down for repair more than it's working, regardless what wikipedia says

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geysers




LowGear

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Re: Tesla
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2019, 06:38:51 PM »
My Fiat 500e drives very nicely.  It's so wonderful to walk down to the car and it's fueling system is full every morning.  Okay, in the Pacific Northwest the Grand Coulee Dam is a socialist device but other than that it's really nice.
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BruceM

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Re: Tesla
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2019, 07:55:34 PM »
AdeV's point on battery investment and research is a good one.  Capitalism is a mixed blessing but when there is big money to be made in a growing global market, capital is deployed and much effort will ensue.  Alas, more on incremental improvements than basic research, but still a great deal of effort.

Sure would be great if the US gov. would get it's head out of the sand and commit to being part of the solution. That would stimulate capital investment in US firms and help develop the technology we need.

Flow batteries have my interest for longer term storage.  The iron based flow batteries are particularly interesting to me for stationary applications in that the materials and "electrolyte" are common and not toxic. 






mikenash

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Re: Tesla
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2019, 08:27:42 PM »
Re thermal energy in Rotorua

Last generation's houses there and nearby all had heat-exchanger loops going down into the thermal to heat houses, water etc

But over time the accumulated draw of them depleted the energy available to geysers etc in the tourist areas.  Tourism's our biggest single earner and, back then, Rotorua was a big part of it - so the individual heat-exchangers were banned

mikenash

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Re: Tesla
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2019, 05:58:02 AM »
I dont have $100,000 - or even $1000 most days - but Im willing to wager the traditional Box of Beer that Tesla will be (a) alive and (b) profitable in four years

LowGear

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Re: Tesla
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2019, 07:23:47 AM »
Elon has already changed the world.  Electric transportation and rocket innovation will not be the same.  Let's not forget the Model S that started this thread had over 400,000 miles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyZOLMeMYnI

The storage system I like is the stacked weights that are raised to store the energy and let down for recovery.
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mikenash

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Re: Tesla
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2019, 09:32:59 AM »
Casey, the trouble with this is that it's like arguing with strangers on the internet over issues

(In fact . . . .)

That's because folks tend to have a viewpoint/prejudice/preconception to which they are attached and they're likely to dismiss evidence that doesn't support their viewpoint and embrace evidence that does (we're using "evidence" loosely here

Thus, say, our reactionary Australian colleague - should he watch your video - is quite likely mentally formulating a counter-argument even as the two bald gentlemen are speaking (in the same way in which when the Jehova's Witnesses come to your door, if you make the mistake of engaging them in conversation - as you are speaking, they're not actually listening to you, they're just thinking of what they're gonna say next)

Whereas my liberal (soft, commie, pinko, idealistic) Kiwi self already has a mindset that aligns with what those two blokes are saying and so I think they - and you - are making a lot of sense

The old jokes about this process resulting in heat rather than shedding light, or about how politicians use statistics like a drunk uses a lamppost (more for support than for illumination) apply here  IMHO

LowGear

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Re: Tesla
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2019, 04:53:00 PM »
I can only lead our brothers and sisters to the water.  If they think it is for drinking or washing then how am I to convince them that redemption is only one splash away?

The challenge is to move the lamp post a few feet from where it was this morning.

I suspect that if we all saw a serious, for real pinko, commie, lefty that we pseudo progressives would be the most anxious.  One of my favorite friends could do a two part harmony with the conservative many so I had to grin whilst reading your dose of reality.  Hence my flirtation with heresy in the first paragraph.

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