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Author Topic: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners  (Read 6934 times)

old seagull man

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Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners
« on: July 24, 2019, 05:07:24 AM »
Have seen a few adds for these lately and wondered if anyone had any practical experience with them, or of them.
I have lots of panels, so powering one wouldn't be very difficult.

Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners

Here is the sales pitch;


HYBRID Solar AC units are as the name suggests. They run directly off solar panels during daylight hours or when their is sufficient sunlight and mains power in the evening or at times of limited sunlight. They can also run on a combination of solar and mains power.

Ideal applications include Businesses, Schools, Offices, Site Camps or wherever heating or cooling is required during the days they run for free when there is sufficient daylight.

STAND ALONE 48 volt 100% Off Grid units run completely off solar panels and charge a battery bank for use during the evening or at times of little sunlight.

Perfect for any off grid application such as remote communities, Islands, farms, mining sites or off grid residential use.

Solar AC, both Hybrid and Stand Alone is Proven Technology with hundreds already installed in Australian Telco towers to cool equipment and batteries.



So you know all i know about them now.




BruceM

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Re: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2019, 05:32:33 AM »
I've done an EMF mitigation survey on two (on grid) homes in the last few months with regular inverter type split systems.  I got inside them and also studied the limited schematics and such I could find on line for them (two different manufacturers). They are audibly fairly quiet and owners report good economy.  It makes sense that someone has added a PV input circuit to them, as it would take only a DC to DC boost circuit and adding the PV input connectors to do so.  The inverter part of these is a variable 3 phase motor drive for the exterior compressor.

 Alas, they have not been designed with any concern for EMI on home wiring, and they do have pretty nasty conducted EMI that affects the whole home wiring.  The interior units have their own switching supply and use DC PWM on the fan motor.  Even when "off" the interior units affect a half the AM band (and higher) frequencies.   It's really a pity as with a simpler design, using two speed induction motors both inside and out, you could have similar functionality without all those expensive failure prone electronics, and no home power EMI at all.  Alas, we seem doomed to products which always use the latest technology...like refrigerators and washers and dryers with embedded microcontrollers, switching power supplies, and digital readouts.  I'm sure by now there are digital f*ing  toasters and crock pots too.





« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 05:36:25 AM by BruceM »

AdeV

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Re: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2019, 09:59:28 PM »
Unfortunately for EMI-sensitives, switching power supplies are highly efficient and physically very small, compared to the old transformer-rectifier-capacitor units. I have old 1980s computers which have transformers weighing over 4lbs/2kg, capacitors the size of a coffee mug and honkin' big diodes just to provide a few dozen watts at +/-12v and 5dc... whereas a switching capacitor of similar capacity will fit inside the footprint of just one of those big ole caps. The tradeoff, of course, is bucketloads of noise, which for most of us isn't a problem (yet, at least).

Rather than trying to silence the AC unit at the electrical level, is there no way you can shield it sufficiently to fix the EMI issues?
Cheers!
Ade.
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veggie

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Re: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2019, 10:36:23 PM »
Old Seagull,

Sounds like an interesting product.
Can you post some links to where you were looking at these units

cheers,
veggie
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw
- Changfa S195 (Waiting for a project)

BruceM

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Re: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2019, 10:47:39 PM »
The independent research shows that brain function (Dr. Andrew Marino and others) is measureably affected in people with no awareness of pain or other sensations from EMF exposure. It just ultimately manifests as a variety of illnesses unique to that individual.  I'm pretty biased, because for over 25 years, EMI immediately hurt and was profoundly mentally disturbing, though now I have no immediate sensation at all on good days, though it does affect my autoimmune diseases later. 

Tremendous improvement of emissions can be done at minimal cost when addressed early in the design phase.  Texas Instruments makes motor speed control IC's for example, which intentionally slow switching times for reduced emissions.  Likewise Linear Technology offers reduced EMI switching controller ICs that also use slower switching times to minimize EMI at the source. Choice of transistors, diodes, inductors and even basic circuits topology choice all play a big role. Toroidal inductors wound for minimal stray field are good, and shielded pot cores can also be a big help.  Carefully tuning snubbers around diodes and switching elements also has a big payoff for peanuts.   The last and most costly solution is to throw passive filtration and shielding at the problem you should have solved by design,  but that can be effective too, though to shield a bad design to a high degree is very, very expensive.  Thus the preaching of EMC specialists to solve the problem in design phase.

Switchers in the hands of a poor designer are a debacle, for EMI. In the hands of a skilled designer with lots of EMC experience, they can be pretty decent.  Sadly, right now, no one is paying attention.  Also, good designers are often hand tied by cost pressures.

Toroidal transformers for linear supplies are one simple solution with good efficiency and more compact size and weight. Alas, they are quite expensive due to the difficulty in winding them. 

Alas, there's no competing with high frequency switchers for compactness, light weight, and low cost.  Except when you consider your family's health.  Our public health statistics are not looking good in many areas.


veggie

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Re: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2019, 02:48:28 PM »
Hey guys,

I would love to use alternative power to cool in the summer.
There is NO WAY that my Roid could power my home central air conditioner.
The only way I could use my roid to help in hot weather is to get a smaller air conditioning unit and run it in a single room such as the bedroom to aid sleeping. Or charge a battery bank with the roid and draw from it in the evening to power a small AC unit.
For emergency cases such as weather related power outages in the lower USA for example, would it not be possible to build a small system that could run from a small generator unit. Perhaps even with a battery bank and inverter which could run the system deep into the night (quietly) then recharge the next day.
A great project for those who love to play with generators and batteries and solar panels and switches and....and...and   ;D

A 12 or 24 volt unit designed for vehicles may be a good starting point.
I'm not very familiar with AC units and what is available, but I think low power single room units would be a great use for excess solar power or energy created from waste streams like vegetable oil.

I'm not suggesting this particular product, but lets use this as an example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrHVnayveHw
minihvac.com

I'm sure there are many other small units available in various voltages and configurations.
This has me thinking  ::)   Could be a fun project. Not trying to cool a whole house, but lets say a small workshop or a bedroom during a failure of the main AC unit.

Heck ! when not needed in the house I could move it out to the greenhouse and run it there ... from the solar/battery system.
Would have to be small. Say around 4000 btu ( or 1.2 kw ). It's a small greenhouse.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 03:00:01 PM by veggie »
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw
- Changfa S195 (Waiting for a project)

veggie

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Re: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2019, 08:45:40 PM »
Useful info, thanks Glort.
My interest is in trying to make some use from the excess energy capacity that have.
3kw of engine generation from free fuel or WVO. and 2KW of solar.
Cooling a room in the house seems like a really good use for it in summer. Even without batteries.
My transfer switch isolates 8 individual circuits in the house. Meaning I can leave 7 circuits on the grid and switch one over to the Listeroid.
I have been working on silencing the Roid and it's barely noticeable from outside my garage at night and run the engine for 4 - 6hrs.
Then buy a single room air conditioner and plug it into one of the designated Listeroid outlets (120 VAC) at night.
The during day plug the AC unit into a grid outlet .... THEN connect the solar to the house through a cheap grid tie inverter and let the solar offset the power used by the grid powered AC. I think that could all be set up in a nice tidy system.

In the winter (Very cold here in Canada) I could re-purpose the system to make heat. Hot water from the panels. (Once Glort gets our solar PV water heating controller designed )  ;)

Misting:
It's a great method of cooling. Especially for a greenhouse. A string of misting nozzles down the middle ridge of a greenhouse ceiling does a very good job of evaporative cooling. Very efficient too. Only need a small pump (or house pressure).

« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 08:57:21 PM by veggie »
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw
- Changfa S195 (Waiting for a project)

veggie

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Re: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2019, 02:48:17 PM »

"Anyway, give us some info so we can better understand your situation and setup."

Ten 220 watt panels on the shelf doing nothing.
One Listeroid and WVO system (3kw max) sitting idle in case of emergency.
I don't want to backfeed the grid. But making cold air in summer seemed like a good use of spare power without backfeeding.
Also have a 12 volt 660 amp battery bank (charged by other panels) un-utilized and availble if needed.

( Imbalanced individual who does not mind spending fun time and money in pursuit of knowledge and experience   :o   )
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw
- Changfa S195 (Waiting for a project)

BruceM

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Re: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2019, 03:44:58 PM »
Grid tie inverters are designed for just this application; but you could put the batteries in essentially float service, charged by the PV, and run the AC during sunny days off a battery connected, stand alone inverter.  The non-grid tie inverter/battery/PV system is then useful as backup power for the grid, especially handy for reduced loads at night with no noise.

You can clean up any off grid PV/inverter setup greatly by adding common mode chokes to the PV charge regulator, and AC output, and keeping the battery and electronics setup away from living space and other wiring so that the strong high frequency emissions of the PV charge regulator and inverter don't get picked up by other circuits and spread through the house.  Cheap health insurance.


veggie

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Re: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2019, 04:23:22 PM »

"You can clean up any off grid PV/inverter setup greatly by adding common mode chokes to the PV charge regulator, and AC output, and keeping the battery and electronics setup away from living space and other wiring so that the strong high frequency emissions of the PV charge regulator and inverter don't get picked up by other circuits and spread through the house.  Cheap health insurance."


Fortunately, the panels, battery bank, charge controllers and engine are far from the dwelling so the only thing running to the mini-AC unit would be the 120 VAC wires from the various possible sources.
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw
- Changfa S195 (Waiting for a project)

glassblower

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Re: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2019, 05:08:17 PM »
I have been working on the design for my next home, 36 solar panels, a listeriod, and have utility as a safety net when I'm too old to fix things. I found an inverter from Schneider Electric that employs "self consumption", that is grid tied when it needs it. In other words, the system will run as much as it can off of the solar, wind, whatever generation you have and will make up the difference from the utility. It will never export or send electric back to the grid, can handle loads bigger than the generator and run off grid. https://solar.schneider-electric.com/product/conext-sw-na/
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BruceM

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Re: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2019, 05:13:30 PM »
That is ideal, Vege, you need only put a common mode choke or dual stage commercial filter on the AC output, since that's the only wire running to the home and conducted emissions will still be brought in that way.  A CM choke rated in the 16-30 amp range is about $15. new.  Like I said, very cheap health insurance.

My neighbor with ES and I watch with dismay as people retire here (well off grid) to inverter powered homes, and within a year or two have their health problems spiral out of control.  It's an avoidable health stressor, but too new and technical for MD clinicians to grok. Everyone wants to cling to the notion that the power co. cigarette science (where they used super clean 60Hz and hid health effects by statistics, throwing away damaging data and looking only at certain cancers).  Our whole world is based on that convenient lie. 

For now, avoid inverter type split systems.  Because power and control wires are distributed, unshielded, to the interior coil/blower units, which also have switching supplies, it's not very practical to try and clean them up significantly.  For the non-inverter systems, put the compressor unit at least 8 foot from the house, or you've created an ELF magnetic field issue.  An additional 8 feet of copper lines isn't a big deal but again is very cheap health insurance. 

For new construction, doing your home power and data wiring in commercial EMT conduit, with compression fittings, is smart, smart, smart. 



« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 05:27:55 PM by BruceM »

veggie

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Re: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2019, 12:10:11 AM »
So BruceM, do we face the same issues with small electric cars? I presume they have some sophisticated motor controllers and push some very high amperage at times. ?
I'm also starting to see a lot of chatter about 5G wireless issues.!
Man, it's hard to keep up on all things that could give us health trouble.
Food additives, pesticides, crop desiccants, and wireless.

and... how do we measure ELF levels in our house ?
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw
- Changfa S195 (Waiting for a project)

BruceM

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Re: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2019, 07:14:28 AM »
Electric cars are a tremendous technical challenge-  the one they haven't even started on yet; which is how the heck can you make them safe for near field magnetics and EMI.  I'm not confident it can be done.  IF I was well I'd be pitching some research to the Air Force and Darpa.  The good news is that gas ignition cars are now so bad that matching that will be easier.  Electronic fuel injection, electronic transmission control are both high power, high frequency pulsing quite close to the driver, and battery on the firewall instead of forward near the alternator is also common.  There is huge room for improvements there, just by making it a design issue. 

ELF magnetic fields are measured with a very sensitive AC Gauss meter.  The level we're adapted to is about 0.5 Gauss of DC field with 0.1 Microgauss of Schumann resonance on top; a mix of biological frequencies that match our brainwaves, with a peak at near 8 Hz.  The average suburban ELF magnetic levels in Wye served areas is about 100 Microgauss.  So we have masked the natural signal with garbag 1000x the strength...only because we are idiotic about WYE (all of Canada is WYE) grounding practice.










BruceM

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Re: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2019, 03:20:35 PM »
I'd avoid solar pumps like the plague. Grundfos SQflex is the best but still has short service life compared to conventional centrifugal pumps at a fraction of the price... welldrillers and owners both say about 3-4 years, just past warranty. Both electronic and mechanical failures.  The only exception would be when centrifugal isn't possible due to extreme depth, then the Grundfos SQFlex scroll type pumps can work well (while they are working) at a slow rate to fill a storage tank.  They have an inverter drive built into the pump, which is bad design when it costs $1000 to pull a pump.  They should have just left it a simple 3 phase motor driven scroll pump with bearing design for low speed, and put all the electronics topside.

Franklin now makes a spendy PV direct inverter for their standard deep well pumps of all sizes and types.  They can drive the pumps down to 30 Hz, no lower, lest their hydrostatic bearings fail, according to Franklin.  More practical in most cases to run the well pump off your main inverter, as I do, and keep the pump as small as practical. 

Variable frequency pumps/controllers essentially have VFD/inverter drive, and should be avoided for wicked EMI due to present design.  A great deal of cost, complexity and unreliability to avoid a pressure tank.  Yes, you could filter the dickens out of the line and keep the VFD far from living spaces and other unshielded wiring, but old, cheap, reliable induction motor pumps generate zero EMI except for the damned Triac in the pump start controller, which a single common mode choke will usually solve adequately. 

People don't realize how insidiously and recently things have changed for the worse for the home electrical environment.