Author Topic: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners  (Read 1208 times)

BruceM

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Re: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2019, 11:08:10 PM »
I've seen the same scheme pitched using a tall crane surrounded by weights. Makes batteries look appealing, but it certainly seems that it would be low risk and reliable if inefficient.

Hydro storage is apparently fairly advanced, with 75% efficiency.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McByJeX2evM
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 11:10:57 PM by BruceM »

glort

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Re: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2019, 12:01:07 AM »

Garavitricity

Seems to me the mechanical and frictional losses would be huge with the weight involved. Maintenance and wear and tear with so much mechanical equipment would also be significant. There would be issues with water getting into the shafts as well and I'm not to sure how bright the idea is of Burrowing 1500m deep shafts into the earth is willy nilly. 

I would suggest that rather than using winches and cables etc, it may be better to do it Bruce style. Line the shaft and have the weight as a Piston compressing air which drove generators like steam. water might be an (un)viable working medium as well.
Don't know what the pumping losses would be getting it back up during the day but I would say the mechanical losses on the winching equipment wouldn't be great either and you wouldn't have to worry about replacing cables or one breaking. 

To me this looks like just another venture capital raising start up that sounds good on paper but when analysed properly would be about as viable  as burning stones to make power.

Energy storage is a HUGE problem to overcome and right now the world is just as interested in cashing in on the problem as it is coming up with a viable tech to solve it.
There is money in a solution to the problem but there is also a lot of money in crackpot ideas.

Another few Months and I'll have the Ice storage idea going round in my head again.

BruceM

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Re: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2019, 12:09:11 AM »
Compressed air sucks as a power storage medium- my compressor is 5HP input, but it can't keep up with a 1/2 HP (Gast 3AM) air motor's demands.  In fact, it can't keep up with my Gast 1AM based string trimmer either, and that's about 1/4 HP.  Some of that is the inefficiency of rotary vane motors, but it is not a viable energy storage medium.

The pumped water system listed is almost 40 years old, is still in operation and has 75% efficiency.  I'll take some of those, please.  You need terrain with some serious vertical, and preferably an existing lake...






mikenash

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Re: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2019, 09:02:34 AM »
I like it

Simple is good

It looks scaleable too

I can imagine folks building one using the regenerative braking bits off an old Prius or suchlike

glort

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Re: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners
« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2019, 11:03:27 AM »

The pumped water system listed is almost 40 years old, is still in operation and has 75% efficiency.  I'll take some of those, please.  You need terrain with some serious vertical, and preferably an existing lake...

Pumped Hydro is all the rage with the RE/ green crowd here ATM.  As completely normal, it's benifits are over hyped to the point of blatent and outright lies and the drawbacks are never mentioned or thought of.

What the proponents are touting as the saviour of the countrys future RE grid will power a hand full of homes in off peak times ( almost) for one night.
Going to cost Billions and take probably a decade to build. They say half of that but NO project ever comes near being done on time or at less than triple the initial Budget here.

There would have to be abut 300 Of these systems around the country and we don't have the locations or the money for it. No one does bar a couple of the nordic countries that don't need it anyway.

The 50%+ RE grid with stability and reliability is a good 50 years away yet despite the hype and exaggerated claims.

The problem with all thse storage ideas such as pumped Hydro and the gravity idea is scale.
Looking at what the gravity mob spec their system for, they say up to 3000 ton weight to 1500M.  Deep mine shafts rarely go beyond about 1200M.
That would give the gravity system a storage of about 10 Mwh.

To put that in perspective, The big blattery in South Oz is about 130 MWH so you are going to need 13 of these gravity systems to equal one battery that powers  50K homes for 1 Hour. 

To put it another way, one of these gravity machines with it's 3000 ton weight falling 1200M ( don't know the cost but it's got to be in the tens of millions even before you do the transmission lines) will provide 12 Hours of power for 320 Homes. That's going to be some powerful expensive electricity!

And of course if the day turns out to be still and overcast..... We'll back to kero hurricane lamps and a gas camping fridge for the great unwashed who thought us nutters with our DIY generators were weirdos.
The Bigger problem is that power average is for now. If we believe the other green Hype, In 10 years time we will all be driving electric cars and charging them at Night off cheap off peak power.   :o  Where is the quadruple facepalm icon for that bit of problematic thinking? If you believe that then one of these gravity systems will be lucky to power about 100 homes.
And again, this is all based on the idiotic assumption that the wind will blow and the sun will shine every day.

Also, from what little I know about mines that could be written on the top left hand corner of a postage stamp, Mines are wet places in a lot of the world and there is a lot of energy expended in pumping them out and keeping them from flooding. I also read that Mine water has a LOT of nasties in it so you wouldn't want to be just pumping it out into the local river or watering your Petunias with it. 

With 10 min of research I would give this idea zero chance of being put into use beyond attracting Gubbermint Money that is thrown at any crackpot  green idea these days and some other money from companies looking for a tax write off and the opportunity to get some  Virtue Signalling PR.

I see this company has secured a grant to Build a test rig to show the idea works. Would anyone doubt it could work?  Maybe they might like to see if taking the handbrake off a car will allow it to roll down a hill at the same time?  It's pumped Hydro with a different working medium, WTF is there to test?
I could demonstrate this literally with a  $30 DC Motor on top of my shed roof, a solar panel and a bucket of sand!
Big different between something working and something being viable on a scale and cost basis.  I could make an engine run on Channel No.5 but that does not mean it's a solution to energy generation or storage because it can work.

They could tell you to 100KW the power these systems would generate, the losses and everything else with mathematics from 100 years back.  You don't have to spend Millions building a test rig. 
Shows what a crock these things really are.

These BS concepts annoy me because they are basicaly scams and belittle the Enormous  problem the world faces with energy storage for which there is NO viable concept even touted ATM. 
Those behind it might say so but like this scam, Bit of a decent look even by the uneducated soon reveals the flaws.




mikenash

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Re: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners
« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2019, 06:09:35 PM »
Dunno

Here in NZ in the late 20's we began to identify a need for a substantial National Electricity Grid and the Ministry of Works engineers started thinking about it

Some of them started scouting rivers/elevations/locations/terrain.  A couple went off to Mother England to look at dynamos and associated hardware

20 years and a lot of cock-ups later we had the Waitaki Dam in the South Island generating electricity.  It has been a faithful servant for sixty years.  So that's the first two lessons:

(one) Yes you can.  And (two) good infrastructure will serve for a long time

(And, of course, once we had built Waitaki, the later Benmore and Aviemore and subsequent hydro plants were a snip - more or less)

On the other side of the world, in the US of A, folks were pumping oil out of the ground.  But not with big, gigantic bloody things, but those mulitiudinous small rocker-arm reciprocating set-ups that have been working well since forever.  That tells us that there's nothing wrong with "lots of small" either and maybe that weight-on-a-string-attached -to-a-dynamo thing could work in a backyard tower-sized  setup?  Who knows?

There's a bloke down here with a micro hydro that only puts out a couple of hundred watts.  But, because it does it 24/7, it keeps his batteries topped up to the point where his solar gets a holiday a lot of the time

Also, of course, I suspect folks will have to learn to do more with less in the future.  How many big-screen TVs does the average household need, anyway?

glort

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Re: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners
« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2019, 11:08:03 PM »

Traditional Hydro which generates electricity is a LOT different to pumped Hydro which is meant to store energy, namely renewable.
No doubt Hydro works when the water is the energy but  when you need to input unreliable energy to start with, it's a different ball of wax.

Countries like Norway have huge Hydro systems that power their own country entirely and have left over to sell to neighbouring ones as well.

Quote
maybe that weight-on-a-string-attached -to-a-dynamo thing could work in a backyard tower-sized  setup?  Who knows?

Ummm any half educated on the subject engineer with a pocket calculator would be able to tell you what size  setup one would need in their backyard to get what sort of power storage. I would imagine it would be a VERY straightforward calculation.

Mate of mine had a well drilled 140M on his property about 6 Months ago. was a 4" hole and cost him $15K.
If one were doing a hole 250M and 24" which I doubt would store much power at all, the costs would be significant and that's for the boring alone.
One can get Forklift Battery packs here for around $3500 that would be about 30Kwh storage. Inverter chargers are falling in price and I was looking at 5Kw models last night on the net for $1700.  Add in another couple of grand for wiring and Misc and you have a conventional storage system for a fraction of the price of  the the gravity system.  You wouldn't also have to go through endless hurdles to have a bore sunk or worry about it filling with water every time it rained.... Of you went through the water table and made yourself a well.

MH is a holy grail to me. Love to find a place that had good water flow and drop.  MH addresses the problem I have with solar, Too much over too short a time atm. Mh will give you constant power and you don't even have to run it 24/7. Lots of people with limited reserves run it when they need it and save it when they don't. If you only had a small water reserve ( relatively) you could run solar and boost with the MH.  If you were lucky enough to have plenty fo water than you can generate on the fly.

Probably a lot more places in NZ where that could be done than in dry dusty Oz.

veggie

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Re: Solar Split System Inverter Air Conditioners
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2019, 07:07:50 PM »
UPDATE:

This system is now available where I live.
Quite interesting.
They also have a hybrid model that connects to panels as well as the grid.
Uses grid power when Solar is low.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0719scj4uEE
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