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Author Topic: Lister must do's when first taken home  (Read 20008 times)

Doug

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2006, 06:44:48 PM »
Back and forth.... back and forth...... back and forth......

I have a good mind to contact a Lister/Petter dealer and ask what they think for the CS And AV series....
Settle this once and for all.

Doug

phaedrus

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2006, 10:02:54 PM »
Indian Lister specification is, according to booklet included with a new GTC 6-1 engine, "IS 496". This is, according to the Bureau of Indian Standards (BIS) at http://www.bis.org.in/bis/start.htm , a withdrawn standard superceded by IS 13656, which specification may be seen in detail at http://www.bis.org.in/bis/html/13656.html .

Chevron ([mailto:lubetek@chevron.com]) says: "You can use Chevron Delo 400  SAE 30 or 40 in your diesel engine needing an IS 13656 oil"

Ambient operating temperature range determines whether one used 30# or 40#. Check with API for that, but I use 40# in all conditions. It seldom freezes here and get quite hot.
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hotater

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2006, 10:42:09 PM »
Delo 400 comes in straight weights??  my local guy said it didn't.   ???
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

DaveW

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2006, 12:20:57 AM »
A thought crossed my mind on rereading Listeroil's note .....DEF2101D or BS1905.....and so on.  This is exactly what is written in my ST2MA manual, which would make sense for an engine with a built in oil pump and replaceable oil filter.  The temperature ranges also make much more sense for an aircooled engine.  Detergent oil and high heat ratings are a plus when filtration is a given and the sump temperatures are far higher than a water cooled engine.  Could this debate be in part a mixup of engine and oil types?  My only extensive "old engine" knowledge is on Wisconsins, large sump and no oil filter, and rest assured that detergent oil was not used, instead about once a year the sumps were cleaned of sludge (my job as a boy) and then refilled with 20 wt. for winter or 40 wt. for summer use.  I still can't wrap my mind around an engine with no filtration calling for detergent oil.  I still have 4 old wisconsin TFDs and THDs, and single viscosity oil is still available if you are willing to buy it in 5 gallon cans.  I have been running a couple of these engines off and on for better than 50 years, so I feel sure that non detergent oil will work if the sumps are cleaned out every year or two.

phaedrus

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2006, 01:19:49 AM »
Delo comes in a variety of weights. Go check Chevron at: http://www.chevrondelo.com/  I'm sorry, but your guy is mistaken. Our NAPA dealer says his distributor only stocks multi and 30#, but local chevron jobber has no problem - can get drums of it!

I'd add that the use of multiweight oil in diesels is somewhat problematic.The polymers that make those oils "multi" can gum things, like rings, up badly under some conditions. And their use is unnecessary anyway - so the choice is simple and depends solely on operating environment temperature.

Delo comes is weights from 10# to 50#. I shrunk the url that leads to the chevron page dealing with this subject to this: http://tinyurl.com/o6ny5 . From there you can get adobe data sheets.
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hotater

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2006, 05:28:28 PM »
  I learn something every day!!

NOW the question becomes-- Can I switch for multi-weight to single on all the diesels around the place?  Ford says 'no' on the PS 7.3.  Onan says 'no' on the 30 Kws and Onan says 'no' on the 15Kw....THAT means I can't talk the landlord into buying another drum of  one grade to fit all.  Drats!
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

phaedrus

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2006, 07:26:49 PM »
We use delo 400  SAE 40# in toyota corolla, 7.3 FORD diesel, kubota diesel tractor, kubota genset, and GTC (lister type) 6 - 1 diesel generator, and several portable gas engines driving compressors, garden tractors, etc. This complies with the mfg SAE spectification in the case of some, but not all of these engines. It does comply in ALL these engines with the mfgs API specification. This is because muliweight oils are specified for the corolla, for example, in order to get better milage. The oil consumption is much  lower with 40# oil than with multi, especially in the toyota, and we have had no problems with lubrication.
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hotater

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2006, 07:36:12 PM »
thanks for the info....you reckon it would work at twenty below??
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

aqmxv

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #38 on: September 04, 2006, 09:03:49 PM »
thanks for the info....you reckon it would work at twenty below??

Absolutely, positively not - at least not without some serious crankcase heat.  Speaking as somebody who got 250,000 miles out of a '94 7AFE Corolla in the rust belt before it was fatally sideswiped, I can say with the weight of experience that 10w30 is specified for cold starting for a reason.  Full-flow pressurized oil systems are designed around a particular viscosity.  If the viscosity is too low, the oil runs out of the bearings faster than the pump can push it in, resulting in metal-metal contact in the normal operating range.  If the viscosity is too high, the oil does not flow to the bearings at a sufficient rate to maintain the hydrodynamic wedge, resulting in metal-metal contact.  If the oil is really too viscous, the pressure control valve can be overwhelmed, resulting in excessive oil pump wear, gasket failure, bulging or exploded oil filters, and other fun phenomena.

Viscosity of a newtonian fluid (lube oils without VI modifiers are pretty close to the theoretical ideal) is inversely affected by temperature.  So SAE 40 oil may meet the API spec, but it emphatically does not meet the cold-flow requirements.  The crank-mounted gearotor pump on the last two generations of Toyota A engine, in particular, probably doesn't respond well to cold-starts with too thick oil...

You could probably get away with it with garage keeping or a warm climate.  But it's "getting away," and you're definitely off the tribological reservation in doing it.  As for reducing oil consumption, my Corolla pushed a lot of oil vapor through the PCV valve with 10W30 oil.  You can get the same benefit with changing to 10W40 without having the cold pumping problems.  I'd probably go with 15W40 one-fleet "diesel" oil in your situation.

Single-viscosity oil is for internal-combustion fossils like listeroids and Detroit diesels.  The engineers designing almost anything for first-world use after about 1965 assumed that a multiviscosity oil would be used, and designed the bearing tolerances, oil pump displacements, oil galley sizes, etc assuming certain values for oil viscosity on cold-start at -20F.  If you go out of this range, you may get by, or you may pay a heavy price.

I'm not always a by-the-book guy.  But I am a firm believer in actually understanding the design requirements and limitations of a machine before doing something specifically against design expectation.  Engineers aren't usually idiots.  Unless you have reason to belive you're better at tribology than Toyota's, Fords, and Kubota's engineers, or you dont' care about what may happen to your engine tomorrow morning, you should probably be cautious about experimenting...
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hotater

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2006, 10:44:31 PM »
GREAT answer!!

You made the point I was getting at.  When I moved here there was half a drum of Delo 400 15W40 in the gen shed.  THAT was the main reason for experimenting with it in a Lister...to standardize my 'fleet' oil requirements.  It did NOT work.  15W40 is too thin for the Lister.  I'll have to accept the fact I've got two oil requirements and stock them accordingly.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

mobile_bob

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2006, 01:32:36 AM »
my take  on the issue, have made my point elsewhere but i want to chime in here.

because of the design of the listeroid, with its top oiling, the oil holes and grooves as supplied by the manufactures
i would not recommend a multi weight detergent oil, period. because of the following

1. the top oiling method is marginal in my opinion at best,

2. there is no provision for full flow filtration

3. the top holes and grooves are in the center of the highest pressure point of the brg shell set, they are
in precisely the correct spot to destroy the oil hyd wedge that has formed, thicker oil will help here, thinner is clearly a
disaster.

in the event that some changes have been designed, implimented with the following, then multiweight detergent oil might be of use.

1. plain shells, most imparticular a top shell without holes or grooves, so that the oil wedge that is form can be maintained

2. a hollow dipper tube to feed oil into the lowest loaded part of the shell set, ie, into the center of the lower shell

3. the lower shell has the groove running axially down the center of the shell, as in modern construction, to feed the chamfer/ramp and aid in formation of the hydraulic wedge

4. some form of filtration is installed in the hollow dipper, to catch the fines, and reduce their entry into the brg shells to begin with.

it is my firm belief that if these design changes can become a reality, then a multigrade detergent oil could be used.

until then there is simply no good case for running a multigrade detergent oil, and plenty of rational reasoning and empirical evidence to not use it.

bob g
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Doug

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2006, 01:42:37 AM »
We're going to have to revisit this when I see what India has done with the Petter and its presure fed cam and crank. Should have som pictures in a couple of weeks for the tare down.

The GM90 deserves some comments because of its oiling system as well. ( are yo out there Mike Monteith )

Doug

aqmxv

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2006, 04:08:02 AM »
Bob said, on Liseroid oiling:

until then there is simply no good case for running a multigrade detergent oil, and plenty of rational reasoning and empirical evidence to not use it.

No argument on any point.  In fact, I agree completely.  Splash-oiled engines desgined for monograde oils should use monograde oils.  It appears that Lister always specified some detergency for the CS engines to keep the carbon in suspension and prevent coking, and that this was common practice as far back as the 1930s for diesels.  Their solution for gunk management was the stepped sump.  Given the low pressures and rise rates involved, it all should (and by many decades of historical evidence does) work very well.

The only change I can see that might be required for a splash-only single-sump listeroid like mine would be more frequent oil changes.  No big deal.
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mobile_bob

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2006, 04:16:25 AM »
"The only change I can see that might be required for a splash-only single-sump listeroid like mine would be more frequent oil changes.  No big deal."

i couldnt agree more!

personally i would think that 100 hr intervals would be prudent, and perhaps a recycler unit could be built fairly easily and inexpensively, all one would need is a way to heat the oil to drive off moisture, and then pump it thru a 1 micron filter, and reuse it.,,, don't know why that wouldnt work.

with a good recycler system i might even go to 50 hour changes, most especially while the engine is fairly new.

bob g
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aqmxv

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2006, 05:15:00 AM »
That or some sort of pump and filter system hooked to the engine.  Either way, it's pretty well documented (back to at least WWII) that you want to get the water and solids out of the oil on a diesel, and after that, as long as the pH is still OK, it can probably go right back in the enigne.

I intend to run a hot water coil into/under the sump on my listeroid just to get the crankcase up to the magic temperature range.  That should take care  of the emulsified water problem...
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