Author Topic: Lister must do's when first taken home  (Read 20009 times)

hotater

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2006, 10:58:25 PM »
Listerdiesel---

Could you link to a Lister manual for the CS engines that calls for detergent oil?

The reason dirt is held in suspension in detergent oils is so the oil filter gets a chance at it..  The CS used a 'dead' sump to catch the gunk, not a filter.
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Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

t19

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2006, 11:46:29 PM »
Well my SOM has a filter, it is hidden behind the wheel and looks like a wire condom ;)  It was thick with gunk
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t19

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2006, 11:47:38 PM »
Well my SOM has a filter, it is hidden behind the wheel and looks like a wire condom ;)  It was thick with gunk
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sid

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2006, 12:00:19 AM »
just checked my manual for the lister and it calls for a good quality diesel engine heavy duty detergent lubercating oil that meet spec 496// must be some type indian spec.straight mineral oils are not suitable, neither are oils of less detergency than specified.page 4 of the manual. do not know what a original would require//sid
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t19

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2006, 03:08:15 AM »
Then manual that Guy scanned and sent me called for non-detergent oil
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aqmxv

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2006, 03:22:45 AM »
http://www.homebrewpower.co.uk/Picture_Albums/Lister%20CS%20Range%20-%20Manual/slides/Lister%20Diesel%20Manual%20CS%203-1%205-1%2010-2%20-%200007.html

http://www.homebrewpower.co.uk/Picture_Albums/Lister%20CS%20Range%20-%20Manual/slides/Lister%20Diesel%20Manual%20CS%203-1%205-1%2010-2%20-%200008.html

These pages specify a "diesel-grade" oil of one of about eight brands.  No mention of dispersants or detergents anywhere.  I googled briefly today to find information on just what was in these oils and how they diffrered from the automobile oils that we are specifically warned against in these pages.  Absolutely nothing.  I suspect this information is in a dusty book somewhere.  Anybody have a good engineering university library nearby?

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t19

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2006, 12:11:58 PM »
Well there is a difference, the guys at Mr Lube would not put Synthetic oil in my Passat Diesel because it was not rated for Diesel.
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aqmxv

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2006, 03:05:47 PM »
Well there is a difference, the guys at Mr Lube would not put Synthetic oil in my Passat Diesel because it was not rated for Diesel.

No argument with the oil change guys on the VW.  I'd suggest something like Delvac or Rotella synthetic in an appropriate viscosity grade for the Passat.  Put a bypass filter on it and run the oil for 30-60,000 miles.

The book I posted links to dates from the 1930s or so.  SI and CI oils now are not even vaguely the same as they were then.  Drawing comparisons based on nomenclature is risky at best.  Listers were designed so long ago that the supplies they were designed around simply don't exist any more.  It's not a trivial question to figure out what should be used.

Add in the fact that some listeroids have the stepped sump and pump of the originals, and some (like mine) are entirely splash lube, and the question gets more complex.
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hotater

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2006, 03:38:12 PM »
aqmxv---

This is a very good point.  A  LOT of research and effort has been made in the last week to figure out why some Lister bearings are failing early.  The lubrication is always the first suspect in such a case.

I'm betting early diesel oils had quite a few heavy metal components for extra lubricity and long life.  ANY information on old oil formulations would be very helpful in figuring this stuff out.

The one thing that MUST be understood about these Lister(oid) engines, though.  They are NOT made to moderen 'Japanese' standards of fit and finish that can really use the modern synthetics and thin multi-vis motor oils.   Think of a Lister(oid) as Granddaddy's tractor.  Now what oil is best for THAT?
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Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

xyzer

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2006, 10:17:16 PM »
re con rod dippers. The thread on the 6-1 and 8-1 Lister engines is 5/16 BSF(British standard fine).
Mick

5/16"-22TPI=BSF for the machinist guys.  It sounds like they all have the same dipper thread.
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listeroil

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2006, 11:50:31 PM »
The 1983 Lister Instruction  Book No103 on 6-1 &8-1 engines states this about oil.

Naturally aspirated diesel engines must be run on H.D. Diesel lubricating oils to specifications equal or better than DEF2101D or BS1905 type B or MIL-L-46152 orAP1 CD. Straight mineral oils are not suitable, neither are of less detergency than specified.

MIL-L-2104B or MIL-L-2104C or AP1 CD oils are recomemded for engines running at a high load factor, particularly in conjunction with high ambient temperatures. They must also be used if the sulphur content exceeds 0.6%.

Series 111 oils must be used when oil changes are made at periods longer than 250 hours.

Multi grade oils must exceed specifications MIL-L-2104B or MIL-l-2104C.

The oil should be suitable for oil changes every 250 hours without undue oxidation, with sump temperatures reaching 150C in tropical climates under extremely severe applications, and 120C under normal applications.

Viscosity

listeroil

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2006, 12:36:28 AM »
The 1983 Lister Instruction  Book No103 on 6-1 &8-1 engines states this about oil.

Naturally aspirated diesel engines must be run on H.D. Diesel lubricating oils to specifications equal or better than DEF2101D or BS1905 type B or MIL-L-46152 orAP1 CD. Straight mineral oils are not suitable, neither are of less detergency than specified.

MIL-L-2104B or MIL-L-2104C or AP1 CD oils are recomemded for engines running at a high load factor, particularly in conjunction with high ambient temperatures. They must also be used if the sulphur content exceeds 0.6%.

Series 111 oils must be used when oil changes are made at periods longer than 250 hours.

Multigrade oils must exceed specifications MIL-L-2104B or MIL-l-2104C.

The oil should be suitable for oil changes every 250 hours without undue oxidation, with sump temperatures reaching 150C in tropical climates under extremely severe applications, and 120C under normal applications.

Viscosity
The viscosity of the lubricating oil must be as follows--
For starting temperatures--
Below -15C                      SAE. 5W
Between -15C and +4C     SAE. 10W
Between  4C and 30C       SAE. 20/20W
Above 30C                      SAE. 30W

 
The oil I use in my 8-1 engined 4.5KW Start-O-Matic is HDX 30 to MIL-L-2104B spec. and this seems better than the multigrade I used to use. I don't use as much oil as I did when using multigrade. I run for 8 hours a day every day and now I only need to top up once a week.
 
 Mick

hotater

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2006, 02:30:36 AM »
I got news for somebody!  The only way to get the sump temperature up to 250 F is to put a propane heater in it!  130 is TOPS.
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Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

aqmxv

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2006, 04:58:01 AM »
Thanks to Listeroil for that useful bit of information.  The Lister manual on my copy of the Utterpower CD (which I just discovered today) dates from the '50s, since it specifies compliance with US Military spec. Mil-0-2104 (no suffix).

I looked up mil-0-2104.  This page http://www.fuchs.com.sa/english/products-appendix.asp very usefully gives a running history of worldwide oil standards for both SI and CI engines back to WWII.

Mil-0-2104 turns out to be the follow-on to U.S. Army standard 2-104A and 2-104,  issued between 1941 and 1943, and were superseded by U.S. Army 2-104B May 1943. 2-104B. 2-104B was the same as 2-104/104A except that it specified testing with a high-sulfur fuel.  This matters because sufur reacts with water created during combustion to form sulfuric acid.  Strong basic buffers must be added to the oil to prevent corrosion.  The other requirements laid down in the early 2-104/mil-0-2104 standards seem to be shear resistance and extreme pressure protection.  Tellingly, the API equivalent certification ti mil-0-2104A is CB.  Mil-0-2104B is equivalent to API CC.

What all this seems to boil down to is that Lister expected people to change the oil often enough to get the entrained gunk out.  They specified a level of detergency in later years that should keep the carbon in suspension, but would probably settle heavier particulates out to the deep sump over time.

I have corresponded with a college friend who is now heavily into antique military vehicles.  There are plenty of unfiltered sumps with con-rod dippers running around in his crowd, too.  The consensus there is to run a detergent oil on rebuilt engine and to change frequently.  If you have vintage deposits of crud, dispersants and detergents are not your friend.  If you can't be bothered to swab out your original Lister crankcase, use a non-detergent oil

Now onto viscosity:  Lister does not specifiy a single multigrade oil for the CS ever.  This is telling, because they were common as dirt by 1983.  I suspect they didn't like what happens to viscosity improvers when the oil goes acidic.  The good news is that you can get API rated single viscosity oils at your friendly agricultural supply dealer.  Plenty of vintage farm equipment uses stuff that should meet API CC or CD and is SAE 20 or 30 viscosity.  Likewise, the Detroit Diesel folks tend to need oils that have similar characteristics to what Lister specified.

For breaik-in of a listeroid, I recommend lots of strong magnets and frequent, hot oil changes.  After break-in, change the oil when it starts to look too black or smell funny.

 For Hotater:  The temperatures specified are maximums.  The magic minimum for just about any crancase is about 160 F.  If you can keep engine oil between 170F and 220F, it lasts a very long time.  Below 170F, water emulsifies into the oil, and above about 220F the oil begins to coke or oxidize.  The fact that Listers and listeroids draw a vacuum on the crankcase can't but help with getting rid of the water vapor.

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dkwflight

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Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2006, 05:24:51 AM »
Hi With the heater I have under the sump on a 95f day, the sump seems to stabilise at 170f.
Dennis
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