Increased efficiency

[GuyFawkes]

you have specific fuel capacity for nitromethane, and gasoline, a specific engine you know the capacity of, and specific bhp for each fuel, and fuel consumption rate, you don't need anything else.

If we assume that fuel consumption equals usable HP.  It is bad practice to use the assumption in the prof of the assumption.



From
http://www.goarmy.com/racing/nhra_top_fuel_dragster.jsp
Car 2225 lbs or 1009Kg
Speed 338 mph or 151 m/s

E = 0.5 m v^2 = 11.5 MJ energy accelerate the car


Fuel used 12 gal
Near as I can tell they are limited to 85% nitro at most tracks, Denver seems to be an exception.
Assuming that is by volume we have.  Also assuming nitro and gas are not soluble in each other, a less safe assumption.

10.2 gal or 38610 cm^3 of nitro
1.8 gal or 6814 cm^3 gas

Nitro 1.138 g/cm^3 and 12 MJ/Kg
Gas 0.803 g/cm^3 and 42 MJ/Kg

Nitro 43.939 Kg and 527 MJ
Gas 5.4716 Kg and 230 MJ

Total 757 MJ

11.5 / 757 = 1.5% efficiency for the car system, better then I expected.  I did not double check the math so...

If we had the torque and RPM plots for the engine during a run we could look at just the engine should be better as a lot gets blown off in the clutches.

I'm disappointed in you andre, all those transmission losses, the not inconsiderable losses laying rubber down and distorting it....

come on, someone do that math (if I do it nobody will believe it)

you have BHP, specific fuel capacity and fuel flow rate, that is all you need to calculate "efficiency" as it is being used for lister(oid)s...

[GuyFawkes]

I didn't lay $100 on the table so you could indulge in your usual trick of moving goalposts and restating the same bullshit a different way.

No you layed $100 on the table until you realized that you might actually have to pay it. Then you tried to justify removing it. But hey man that's cool. It is what it is.

What we have so far

FROM YOU
I am designing a new blower
bullshit
bullshit
bullshit
bullshit

FROM ME
$100 says there is priot art (stated FOUR times)

see a pattern here?

[GuyFawkes]

Listen up Fawker... (stuffy, limey, prick and self proclaimed king of knowledge)... why you feel the need to make remarks about other folks intelegence (based by reading a few posts on a forum) is beyond my comprehension...   You know NOTHING got it... Nothing about these folks and their abilities including myself... We do however know something about you.... you are a prick!.. For the record I have NEVER claimed to invent anthing truly novel... I have combined some things that I MAY the first to do (Like build a working IC Erricson cycle engine)  but most of the time I'm a student of history... and like I've said before most ideas are old ones (prior art) ... however unlike you I do believe new things are possible... logic says it is so... you seem to have a very closed mind... in your world eveything has been done so why try anything new... funny thing is this is the same thing that folks like you told Newcomen, Watt, Otto, Diesel and every single person who ever tried to bring anything new to the table... They told Otto he was wasting his time... steam was king (it was for about a hundred years) and it would always be so....  Logic says you and your kind are wrong... there will be a new and more efficient way  to pump air or harness the work done by expanding it in a cylinder ... maybe twinscrew has a novel idea.. maybe not..  but why do you feel the need to slam him with NO knowledge about him and his ideas... if they have merrit they may get recognised... if not then just why not let the chips fall where they may... sure quantum leaps in invention are unlikely... each idea is generally built on one that came before it...  Here's an example of a fairly novel motorcycle...
http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2006/06/30/motoczysz-unveiling-racebikes-at-laguna-seca/

I'll chalenge you to find us some prior art on this design...

Sure the Comet has it's advantages... it mixes vey well... so it's better for heavy fuel...  But like it or not your comet burns more fuel per output than my DI listeroid...

Oh And I just had to post this.... I always wanted to build a lister with a crank arrangement like this... vibration free in a big slow turning single cylinder engine would be a very usefull feature
http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2006/06/19/neander-turbo-diesel-motorcycle/

Ideas are called prior art not prior engineering.. ... No one teaches art in engineering class... they only teach numbers and proven designs... like it or not innovation is an art... A formal edjucation is generally the enemy of innovation... be carefull you might actually learn something from someone you didn't want to learn from... 

Stuffy limey prick?

You compare yourself to Newcomen, Watt and Diesel!!!

Formal edJucation the enemy of innovation?

You have made statements that CLEARLY show you are bandying about technobabble buzzwords without the slightest clue what they mean, when called on this, I'm a stuffy limey prick who knows less that nothing, you rank yourself alongside genuine engineering gods, and then to round it off you wander off onto completely unrelated bullshit about contra-rotating cranks which are older than the diesel engine itself.

WHERE IS THE MEAT?

[Twinscrew]

see a pattern here?

Yes, most definately. I believe that everyone else here sees the same pattern that I do. $100 says that you're one absolutely miserable human being. Misery loves comapny. However, quite ironically, I've got another $100 that says that you're one lonely Mofo.

[slowspeed1953]

see a pattern here?

Yes, most definately. I believe that everyone else here sees the same pattern that I do. $100 says that you're one absolutely miserable human being. Misery loves comapny. However, quite ironically, I've got another $100 that says that you're one lonely Mofo.

Ok so yall dont agree on all kinds of different shit, but the personal attacks are just cruddy! Guy may or may not be a lonely dude, whats your point if he is are you going to reach out to him?

Peace&Love , Darren

[GuyFawkes]

Drag Racer
500 c.i.d.
7000 to 8000+ BHP
1.5 gallons per second fuel delivery
5000 BTU / pound fuel specific heat capacity.

Lister CS 6/1
85 c.i.d
6 bhp
1 gallon every 4 hours fuel delivery
13920 BTU / pound specific heat capacity.

THE MATH.

3600 seconds in an hour, so 1.5 gall/sec = 5400 Gall/hr
Lister is 0.25 gall hr, so drag motor uses fuel at a rate 21600 faster than a lister.

Diesel is near as dammit 14000 BTU pound, nitro is 5000, so lister fuel is 2.8 times more energetic than drag fuel.

21600 / 2.8 = 7714, eg drag motor consumes BTU at a rate 7714 times faster than the lister.

Approx 25% of drag fuel is unburnt, you can drop this to high 90's and lose the drag race, but level the playing field because lister doesn't throw a quarter of its fuel out the exhaust pipe unburnt

So drag motor rate of fuel BTU consumed INSIDE the motor is 5785 times faster than the lister.

drag motor BHP we'll pick 8000, Lister is 6, 8000 / 6 = 1333

SO, drag motor produces 1300 odd times lister BHP, but consumes 5700 odd times as many BTU

5700 / 1300 = 4.38

So, Lister is 4 and a bit times more efficient at converting fuel BTU into BHP, IRRESPECTIVE OF FUEL USED.

If you can find two more extreme examples of each end of the spectrum than a 650 RPM 4 BHP per litre Lister diesel and a top nitromethane burning dragster motor I'd like to hear it, and even with these most extreme examples, you ONLY GET A FACTOR OF FOUR variation in BTU in to BHP out.

==============

Wind it just a little way back to the 1200 BHP gasoline dragster, still pretty fucking extreme, and this drops to a factor of 2

==============

Wind it considerably back, right off the race track, to commerical and private vehicle type roadgoing "normal" engines and it drops again, to nearly 1


===============


Like I keep saying, do that math.

Disagree with me, fine, do that math, pick your motor, show your base data, do that math and prove me wrong.

[GuyFawkes]

see a pattern here?

Yes, most definately. I believe that everyone else here sees the same pattern that I do. $100 says that you're one absolutely miserable human being. Misery loves comapny. However, quite ironically, I've got another $100 that says that you're one lonely Mofo.

Is your whizzo blower design based on my stress levels or how many decent looking women I have hopping in and out of my bed?

Hey, you wanna compare lifestyles and surplus pussy you go right ahead, you'll lose that one too.... lrfh

Still, anything to distract attention from your whizzo blower design, which you have said abso-fucking-lutely NOTHING about except you are designing a killer blower, and we're like supposed to accept that like it comes down from on high on tablets of stone.... not in this life.

Prior art.

Prove me wrong, because all you are doing with the bullshit is proving me right.

[mobile_bob]

reachin out? or a reach around? lol

i dunno but i am keepin my backside against the wall

  i don't know any of you here, but i get a perception of each of you,

my perception of Guy:

a well educated man, not only in the classroom , but in the practical as well.
the problem in relating to him, is you have to read carefully the nuance of what he is saying.

words have meanings, and sometimes a slightly different wording can change the meaning dramatically.

perhaps we chould practice more civility, and not try and eat each other for lunch, there is much to be learned
from Guy, perhaps instead of beating on the man, we should get him involved in working thru a problem.

hey,,, i aint the most likeable son of a bitch here either, and i doubt every one of you are a saint either!
lets face it ,, so far to my knowlege there is no patron saint of single cylinder diesels..

also we all need to strive to present, support and defend our positions without getting angry or name calling.

what do you think?

bob g

[Twinscrew]

Is your whizzo blower design based on my stress levels or how many decent looking women I have hopping in and out of my bed?

Hey, you wanna compare lifestyles and surplus pussy you go right ahead, you'll lose that one too.... lrfh

You feeling the need to compare any of this anyone else shows nothing more than insecurity on your part. You need not concern yourself with my projects. I never asked for, nor, do I even want your opinion. Spew your negativity upon someone else. My design already works. There is no need to submit it to the GuyFawkes Doom and Gloom commitee for approval. You want to see a whizzo blower? Check a mirror.
 

[slowspeed1953]

reachin out? or a reach around? lol

i dunno but i am keepin my backside against the wall

  i don't know any of you here, but i get a perception of each of you,

my perception of Guy:

a well educated man, not only in the classroom , but in the practical as well.
the problem in relating to him, is you have to read carefully the nuance of what he is saying.

words have meanings, and sometimes a slightly different wording can change the meaning dramatically.

perhaps we chould practice more civility, and not try and eat each other for lunch, there is much to be learned
from Guy, perhaps instead of beating on the man, we should get him involved in working thru a problem.

hey,,, i aint the most likeable son of a bitch here either, and i doubt every one of you are a saint either!
lets face it ,, so far to my knowlege there is no patron saint of single cylinder diesels..

also we all need to strive to present, support and defend our positions without getting angry or name calling.

what do you think?

bob g

I think your GAY! LOL Just kidding sounds like a really good idea.

Peace&Love , Darren

[Tugger]

If we all stuck to momma's rules...
"If you dont have anything good to say, DON'T say anything at all"
This thread would have stopped pages ago...

Have a great day!!!

[Procrustes]

Years ago when I was young and simple, I saw something forgettable on TV about Pavarotti.  He was running a summer camp for young opera singers.  He submitted that this was a public service, in that he would humiliate children and drive them away from pursuing a career in singing.  I was astounded by his cruelty.

He was right.  He knew perfectly well that most of these kids had an unfulfillable dream, and it was a kindness to knock them down early while they still had the opportunity to find another passion.

I've seen this lesson repeated many times in the software world.  Lots of folks, myself included, work for months and years on a dream, only to find that they can't get past the secretary and venture capital firms.  No one who's been in the business for awhile, or who works in venture capital, will even take note of your great idea unless they can see at least a prototype.  Often I hear people say they are going to write a better X, where X is something with tens of man-years engineering investment.

I made a bad hiring decision once.  This guy was not only bad, but he was too gormless to realize that he was bad.  The archetypical example was when he came to me and said he wanted to solve this particular problem.  I said no, it's too big and we don't have the time.  He then smugly said, well it's 80% done.  I knew this to mean that he had roughed in a potential solution, which may or may not be right, and even if it is right will require another 100x the effort to become genuinely useful.  But at the same time I realized that he simply couldn't see this, and maybe never would be able to, and that it was useless to argue about it.

The best people learn this lesson from others, the middle, like me, learn it through hard knocks, and at the rear there are those who never do learn it.