New Listeroids for sale

[Bolton Power Equipment]

BruceM,

       You are correct, Chinese tractors and Listeroids are apples and oranges, but I'm not trying to compare them 1 for 1. The goal is to import the product within an acceptable performance envelope. That requires some level of consistency. I'm not  trying to improve the over all quality because with hand built machines and no modern machining technology thats not an achievable "ask". The Chinese tractor is a much more complex machine than a CS so to broaden the envelope you must improve quality. Thats possible in China, I watched it happen over the 20 years I imported them. The approach with the CS was to over design the things, basically throwing material at it. My approach as I mentioned earlier in other posts is to ask the manufacturer to add manufacturing steps and features that will keep the product within an acceptable quality envelope. These things are so over designed it's ridiculous, a 10 Hp engine that weighs close to 1/2 a ton... I'm aware of the cherry picking that could have occurred if I'd told the vendor they were for evaluation so I didn't.  I told them it was a one time purchase for "the farm". I wanted off the shelf product. I'm well aware of others failing to "bring up Rajkot quality". I'm an engineer by training so I look at problems in the context of root causes and practical processes to resolve. I think others have failed looking at trying to change Indian process to meet their requirements. I prefer to adapt my requirements to meet Indian process. So I have and will continue to add features that they are capable of adding to their process to align with my requirements. I can't comment of the other manufacturing incongruities you mention because I haven't seen them. Another thing to note is that there are many manufacturers and the prices vary quite a bit. But as always you get what you pay for so I don't shop by price. The CS market in India has softened so the committed manufacturers in India are looking for new markets. They want to re-invigorate the US market so I believe they will try hard to cooperate, it's in their best interest. My approach will be to give them a path forward that they can navigate to grow the business. I can't promise that there will be no issues but I will stock parts and make good on any problem. I do however believe that my adaptive approach is a practical path forward considering the realities of Listeroid manufacturing in India.

[Bolton Power Equipment]

Hi Graham.

Looks like you've done your homework. Maybe there will be a resurgence of interest in the CS, in the States, best of luck, keep posting!

Cheers
Stef

Hope so Stef, they are fantastic machines.

[Tanman]

I’ve been following this thread with lots of interest. Have the first batch of engines arrived? Any updates?

[Bolton Power Equipment]

I’ve been following this thread with lots of interest. Have the first batch of engines arrived? Any updates?

The guy had them on his website when he started the thread and they looked like they were in the US.
Probably best to send him an email and see how you go. My bet is he either has none or a warehouse full.

I had a couple of eval units in the US, one left, a 10/1. I will be ordering shortly some 10/1's and 6/1's if I don't get a specific requirement for anything else. The 10/1 and 6/1 are the most popular it seems. I'm re-configuring to a water pump only (no radiator), a bendix starter and no rail frame since all inquiries so far have wanted to custom mount and build their own cooling system. I'll be putting in an order within a month or 2. 

[Bolton Power Equipment]

I had a couple of eval units in the US, one left, a 10/1.

 I'll be putting in an order within a month or 2.

So they aren't exactly Flying out the door then. Might explain why the Chinese haven't taken them on.
Once can deduce your total experience with these units you think will be different to all the rest is exactly, 2.
Kinda.

I haven't offered any volume for sale yet. I've been testing. Same thing I did with the tractors. After 2 years of testing I'm comfortable with them and will start importing but just like the tractors I'll start slow and build the inventory that sells. Again same approach with the tractors. It took 3 years to go from the first tractor to 1-2 containers per month. I anticipate the same with the listeroids. I'm in no rush, I'd rather do it right. People have every right to be cautious , it's their hard earned money. But when the first volume units are deployed the owners will speak well of them and that word of mouth will ramp the business. Same as the tractors. Listeroids aren't mass market, they are a niche product, but a very unique and useful niche product.

[veggie]

50,000 hours !

In 10 years the average car engine only has approx 10,000 hrs.
(average 3 hrs per day X 365 days X 10 years = 10,950 hrs)

50,000 hrs / 5 hrs per day = 10,000 days ( or 27 years ) of running every day without major overhaul.

Based on the service work that is discussed here by members, I would say your claim is off by about 24 years worth of running.
A Listeroid work engine used most days of the week should need some considerable service within 4 -5 years.

[Tanman]

Well if they do turn out better than the average listeroid I would be interested in picking one up in 2-3 years for sure. I’ll be moving to a better environment to have a listeroid type setup at my place. Excited to wait watch and see.

[AdeV]

So they aren't exactly Flying out the door then. Might explain why the Chinese haven't taken them on.

I suspect there's a couple of main reasons the Chinese haven't taken them on:

1 - they've already got a bazillion Kubota clones in all HP ranges from 3 to 23 (ish), and there's at least 100 bazillion units already out there working their dieselly arses off day and night (often both). Developing a CS clone would be pointless.

2 - the EPA thing... China is a far more developed economy than India these days, so making a "box of bits" which claims to be one thing in order to "sneak" past certain enviornmental laws... well, it's just not worth their bother. They'll never sell in volume, unlike the Kubotalikes.

I'd quite like to import a container load of those Kubota type engines here to the UK, but I'm stuffed by the "CE Mark" legislation, which requires thousands of dollars of paperwork, reports, drawings and so forth, just to "prove" that they aren't dangerous or something, not to mention thousands of pounds of VAT and duty (all payable up front)...

[Bolton Power Equipment]

50,000 hours !

In 10 years the average car engine only has approx 10,000 hrs.
(average 3 hrs per day X 365 days X 10 years = 10,950 hrs)

50,000 hrs / 5 hrs per day = 10,000 days ( or 27 years ) of running every day without major overhaul.

Based on the service work that is discussed here by members, I would say your claim is off by about 24 years worth of running.


Diesels last a long long time. A listeroid is an over designed extremely low stress e.g. yield, engine. To put it in perspective years ago I had an 88 F250 truck with a 7.3L IDI diesel. I put 500,000 miles on that engine with zero failures that required road service on the engine. Batteries and tires yes but never anything broken in the engine. The only parts I ever installed on that motor was a set of glow plugs and I replaced a dripping injector, just one. 500,000 miles and maybe an average speed of 30 mph is about 17,000 hours of run time. Maintenance yes, but no failures. That V8 7.3 was much much more complicated than a listeroid and it weighed maybe twice as much, but put out 20X the power.  When I sold it because the body was shot the motor was humming like new and burning no oil. It would not surprise me at all to see a well maintained listeroid chugging away at 50,000 hours.
A Listeroid work engine used most days of the week should need some considerable service within 4 -5 years.

[Bolton Power Equipment]

Diesels last a long long time. A listeroid is an over designed extremely low stress e.g. yield, engine. 

It would not surprise me at all to see a well maintained listeroid chugging away at 50,000 hours.

Mate I don't know if you have done any reading here or just come to push your business interests but you are talking to people who pretty much at a Minimum, have a decade of experience with these things on their own, and probably several centuries combined. You are talking to many people whom in some cases have torn down, modified and rebuilt dozens of these things. And you are trying to tell them you know better after playing with a couple for a couple of years.  I'm sure you can see the credabiolity problem there.

If you go back through the loads of info here again going back over 10 years, you will see people well understand these things and their abilities and limitations. Unless you have re invented the wheel, there is nothing to say your engines are any different or better than the ones people have been playing with  for a VERY long time.

Describing what is well known and making predictions that in no way add up to the hands on experience so many people have with these engines in all their different sizes and flavours, is not going to convince anyone nor change their minds. 
From what I can tell, you have a few years experience playing with these things but you are trying to tell people whom have relied on them daily for years and torn loads of them apart, that what they know is wrong.

From what I can see, the sum total of your experience with these engines is you have been testing a couple ( or was it just one actually used) for a couple of years. That means absolutely nothing. I have had one of these things about 10 years but there would be a bunch of people here that would run theirs more in a month or two than mine has done in it's life.  Exactly how many hours has this test engine of yours done?  I know for a fact the engine I have is a complete and utter piece of garbage with every known fault these things have but it's probably done a couple of hundred hours and runs fine too.  How it runs at 500 hours and beyond I expect would be a very different thing.

Are you even aware of the common problems with these engines and what specifically have you done to address them? If you listed those you would have a lot more traction in trying to convince people the engines you are selling will be different and more reliable.

Sorry, but what would or wouldn't surprise you or what you think is really insignificant to the decades of hands on experience people here have with these engines and the information they have shared which pretty much all flys in the face of your own. Which to be honest, is nothing more than sales Hype rather than anything remotely technical or detailed .
You have actually posted ZERO information or details that would change anyone's mind that you have overcome the mountains of documented problems these engines can have due to the terrible manufacturing practices and non existent quality control from where you are sourcing them that is the same place everyone else has.
Have you even been to any of the factories and seen and spoken to those making them first hand or has this all been organised through emails?

Did you tear either of these engines down you tested at any point and check them to be in spec and assembled correctly or did you just take the assurances of the person you bought them off because they said the right things you wanted to believe? Without a teardown and measurement, you are kidding yourself far more than anyone else.  I see nothing so far that suggests that you have done anything but run them.... for unknown hours with an unknown load. 

I understand you are trying to push these things and have a financial vested interest in them and therefore want to show them in the best light. Unfortunately You are completely and utterly out of your depth here with the experience and knowledge many have ( and I'm NOT talking about myself)  but as disagreeable as some here can be, their opinions formed over many years and with at least 10's of engines will always be what I and pretty much everyone else goes with, especially as it completely agrees with my own limited experience. It will take a LOT for you or anyone else to come near the respect and believability people here hold that have already commented here.


You may be better off spending your time trying to push your beliefs of these things to less experienced people else where because I really don't think you are going to do much good trying to sell your Yellow snow to this Village of Eskimos.
Where you might get better returns for your efforts is to look at importing spare parts. These are always in demand ( despite the engines running 50K hours) and there would be I believe a better and more profitable market for them.... If you can compete with the other established people doing it in the limited market that exists.

Unless you can PROVE different, what you have is the same engines everyone else has. That's OK though. Just don't try to over hype them and tell people they are something they are not and that's good enough. The engines are well known to this audience, just make the things affordable and available and you are there. Plenty of people will buy them for what they are with all their faults and problems IF they can get them at a reasonable price. You'd do a lot better to be honest and say these things typically need work to get them right than try and tell them you think they should last 50K hours when I myself have yet to see anyone with EXPERIENCE claim that yet.
Just get the things into the US at a reasonable price and 90% of the work will be done then and there.

As one sales person to another, You are going to have to hit this audience with a lot of hard and documented facts to win them over that you have a better mousetrap and change their minds. Talk alone is not going to come near doing it.

I guess you're right, what could I possibly know about diesel engines from the 3rd world? I only imported them for 20 years. 300-400 tractors and maybe twice that in small engines for generators and pumps. Been to the factories frequently and talked to the product managers and engineers. But how could I understand what they were talking about, I only got both my engineering degrees 40 years ago? Diesel engines from India don't use the same physics, chemistry or metallurgy as diesel engines from China so how could I compare them? So I wondered where you earned your engineering degrees, how many diesel engines you have imported and how many years you have been in business?? Curious.

[mike90045]

......

.....
Thing is though, I'm not here trying to reassure everyone of the quality of a product I'm trying to sell to them or rely on it as part of my income.   

Many members  of this forum (myself included) have found, consistently, major screwups with imported indian engines from several vendors.   We'd all like the holy grail of a robust, slow speed diesel, without misaligned cam lobes, and parts having been properly fitted with a small hammer, instead of a 15# sledge.   So, sadly, great skepticism (along with great interest) has accompanied your announcements.

[ajaffa1]

I suspect, once again, that the problems with modern manufacturing comes down to accountants and other money men. They are all involved in the business of making money, rather than the business of making the best, most reliable/efficient equipment possible. They will cut corners at every opportunity and ignore quality control issues to maintain cash flow.

There is only one way to build an engine that will last: build every component to the specifications, have very skilled and well paid personnel to assemble it and do it in an environment that ensures total cleanliness during assembly.Then have it checked/inspected by a good quality control team, any failures at this stage get traced back to the assemblers and manufacturers with consequences.

I believe that changing our laws from 1 year warranty to five year warranty would have an enormous impact on how well built these machines would be, it would also help enormously if replacement parts were all to the same original specification and also came with a five year warranty.

It is heart breaking to see unskilled young people buying small engined equipment and then putting it out for the council to take and dump in landfill a year later because it is cheaper to replace it than try to repair it!

If you want our trust and support you need to back up your claims with hard evidence of quality manufacturing, cleanliness and longevity/reliability testing.

Bob

[BruceM]

Research done by XYZer (Dave) about 10 years ago showed that Rajkot was consistently mislocating the idler bolt location relative to the original CS design such that there was huge lash between it and the crank gear and cam gear. This was the cause of a fair number of idler gear failures.  The problem was that not only was it consistently wrong, it was not held to any tolerance so that Dave had to offer offset idlers made in a wide range of offsets up to 0.055" (the one I needed) in order to solve the problem for so many of us. He is and was a hero to many of us.

This is only one example of many tolerance and quality issues that are common, such as bent camshafts, misplaced cam lobes, casting defects of all sorts, and shoddy machining with dull tools.  I haven't seen anything posted that suggests Bolton is fully aware of these many Rajkot quality issues and has addressed them. Testing a few samples by running them (?!) means little, and this is hardly a demonstration of engineering prowess and instead shows an utter lack of knowledge of production engineering.  Rajkot is NOT China.

You can't just sprinkle marketing pixie dust on Rajkot product and call it a 50K Hour engine ready to run.  That won't fly on this forum.

[veggie]

"So I wondered where you earned your engineering degrees, how many diesel engines you have imported and how many years you have been in business?? Curious."

I have imported a lot of Chinese and Indian engines but that does not make me an expert on engines.
Owning a business does not mean that one can make an Indian engine into something that it's not.
An engineering degree should help one understand the limitations of reaching 50,000 hours on a non-precision engine built from average metallurgy and inconsistent clearances in critical places.

Some of the people on this forum have had extensive experience dealing directly with Rajkot companies. People like Mike Montieth have flown there and discussed quality issues with them. But the story always ends the same way. They promise the moon and deliver much much less.
Most of their antiquated machinery cannot hold tolerances that are needed for consistent quality. Castings are consistent poor quality and a lot of filler paint is used to hide defects.
Many components are still hand drilled, hand tapped, or pounded from tin by hand.
I have had firsthand experience and many such discussions with them only to be disappointed time an again.
In my opinion the only way one would stand a hope of delivering consistent quality is to station a quality control person at the factory and accept/reject  the components and clearances as the engines are built. That is how larger corporations deal with many Asian manufacturers.
Only my humble opinion of course.

[guest23837]

My 2/- worth. I have been reading reams of information about Listeroids  Modern things made in modern factories have a limited use life and some €1500.00 phones have built in obsolescence what chance has an item made from recycled scrap by peasants  in a shed got of lasting 10, 20 even 60+ years? It has to be zilch.
I think if you want an old engine you either buy a good running old engine or buy and restore an old engine using genuine parts, spending lavishly as you go. I know there's guys than can buy a Listeroid pull it apart and  fix all that's wrong with it. These guys have experience often have a well equipped workshop and time. The average bloke wanting cheap reliable power can basically forget it with one of these things.