Author Topic: New Listeroids for sale  (Read 11705 times)

hwew

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 131
    • View Profile
Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2019, 09:05:40 PM »
Oh boy ::), The Billion Dollar questions are, have the tooling been revamped in the factory?

CNC yet?

Castings,  ASTM grade? Are they still using filler on castings such as blocks, flywheels and cylinder jackets?

Fasteners, Did they get away from whitworth fasteners? If not time to update.

Metrology, (QA) CNN yet? Are all incoming parts and parts made in-house inspected? Magiflux cranks, rods, pistons, flywheels? How do they handle parts that are not in spec. What course of action is taken with venders? Are scar reports written up?

Rockwell?

ISO 9001?

I can continue.

The bottom line is we seen lots of junk coming out of India. We seen the work conditions in the factories. For what these engines are priced at the quality should be up to par with Kubota, Perkins and others. I would not pay that amount unless there have been big changes with manufacturing and Having real quality control standards set up and met. Also, the manufacturer should warranty their products. Real warranty like Kubota and others.

Otherwise it’s best to stick with Kubota, and other manufacturers that are Putting out quality products. Even Changfa’s quality years ago is better than what we seen on the Listeroids coming out of India.

Here is a thought, if someone can start a network to find Real used CS Lister engines and remanufacture them there might be a decent market if cost can be kept reasonable. They can go through customs legally. It would be an honest way to sell them in the US and other countries. I feel members here would feel comfortable purchasing a reman with a warranty at a fair price.

Henry
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 02:36:25 AM by hwew »

Bolton Power Equipment

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2019, 03:51:04 AM »
Guys, let me say this again because it seems most of you missed it the first time. I didn't say I have the perfect mousetrap or a secret sauce to make the perfect listeriod. I said I've seen this movie before in China and I know how it ends. One of you said "China is not Rajkot". Well no it isn't, today. But it was 25 years ago when I started looking at Chinese tractors. I visited the factory and they were all hand made by dudes squatting on a dirt floor with hand tools next to a wooden cart with hand made parts on it in a room with no doors, sort of like a Chinese public bathroom, but thats another story. We had all the same issues with boring tool run out, milling tool chatter, misaligned holes, missing process steps, you name it. One importer called RHINO out in California just brought in containers and had so many problems it ultimately finished the company. I asked the product manager in China if the RHINO people had ever visited the factory and he said "no". So I went over there a number of times and looked at what they could do and what they couldn't do well. I didn't buy certain accessories from China, I had them made here in the US or Canada until they could make them well enough, some they never did. In one case we had milling facing problems causing leaks so I asked them to double up on the gasket. I also bought enough tractors to have their attention when I came to visit. Bottom line I fine tuned what I had. Listeriods are the same. Many of you are talking about how they don't have tight tolerances. They don't, but they don't need them. You can get 10 Hp at 7,000 rpms out of a 5 lb aluminum chainsaw motor, but it better be C&C designed and patterned along with very good materials QC or it won't last very long. But a listeriod weighs 1,000 lbs and turns at 1,000 rpm max. A few thousands off on the bore isn't going to matter and you don't need to magnaflux a 50 lb. 10Hp crankshaft that turns at 1,000 rpms. With a 400 HP engine it might be a good idea. With a 500 lb. 10HP crankcase you don't need ASTM grade cast iron either. That engine is so over designed it will be running long after the chain saw motor is shrapnel. The Chinese solved those issues much the same way by over designing the product. I've spent a few years testing these things and what I see is exactly what I expected. An over-designed 100 year old design that stills works for a reason. If Indians are one thing they are smart business people. I will buy volume as long as they give me what they can, not what they can't. Same offer I made the Chinese and I never had quality problems. Rhino did, I didn't, same factory group. The Chinese today have come a long way with manufacturing but 25 years ago it was Rajkot today. I will deal with the manufacturer the same way and get a consistent and acceptable product. I've already decided on buying some parts here, just like I did with the tractors. No magic, just knowing what you have.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 03:54:24 AM by Bolton Power Equipment »

mikenash

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 796
    • View Profile
Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2019, 07:10:04 AM »
Actually, Mr Bolton, there's a bunch of folks here who wish you well; who would be pleased to see a quality entrant into the market if you manage that; and who will watch your progress with an open mind & with genuine interest

Although one might think so on a Word Count basis, Mr Glort doesn't represent any sort of majority view here - just himself

Best of luck to you

broncodriver99

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 323
    • View Profile
Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2019, 08:14:10 AM »
Actually, Mr Bolton, there's a bunch of folks here who wish you well; who would be pleased to see a quality entrant into the market if you manage that; and who will watch your progress with an open mind & with genuine interest

X2 I hope you can make a go at it. Others have tried and failed and others have tried and just build in enough profit to cover the cost of failures. I do believe you will be fighting an uphill battle though, and I do believe that a 50K hour engine is pretty far fetched considering the original Brit iron couldn't do it, but if you can nail down a quality product with quality parts availability that will only help everyone else still in this game. I opted to go the Genuine Lister route, but a source of guaranteed quality parts wouldn't be a bad thing.

Just FYI, the max life expectancy of Original Dursley engines was about 25k hours before MAJOR overhauls as documented in several pieces of correspondence between the factory or dealers and end users/perspective buyers. Scans of the original correspondence is available somewhere on this forum. If that is what Lister could accomplish at the height of their manufacturing capabilities you can bet Rajkot can't hold a candle to it.

As I said before I hope you can make it happen, but the warnings, although some paragraphs long, should be accepted and respected. There is no way you will best Dursley and it's world class production of the original engines in Rajkot. I would imagine that with good QC and oversight you could produce an engine in Rajkot that would last 10-15k hours though.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 08:35:52 AM by broncodriver99 »

dieselspanner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 654
    • View Profile
Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2019, 10:03:40 AM »
To be fair  there's merit in both sides of this argument, a lot of experience on here verses an attempt to move the Listeroids on to, or even surpass, a level the Dursley machines achieved 75 years back,

It's easy to criticise, either the intentions of Mr Bolton, or the nay sayers.

Personally I wish Mr Bolton well and hope he posts his results, good or bad, for the benefit of all.

After all, he's either going to be right or wrong and the rest of us can only benefit from his efforts.

Cheers
Stef

Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

Bolton Power Equipment

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2019, 11:51:28 AM »

Thank you for explaining that again to those of us that missed it the first time.

I now understand the reason you think your engines will last 50K hours and be superior not having the problems other people encountered with these engines and manufacturers is because you told the smart Indian Business men that if they sold you good engines, you'd buy more.

I'm sure that promise of future orders of what?  5-10 machines at a time,  changed the outlook of every worker in the factory and inspired them to all take a level of pride and care in assembling these engines like they have never done or even know how to do, like ever before.  No doubt the managers and owners of the plants will also be encouraging their workers to slow down and take their time to ensure every one of the engines they build for you prioritises quality over the usual Quantity targets they push for. 

If there is one thing your comments have proven far beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind, it's the Vindication of Bruce's statement that you haven't got a clue about the quality issues of these engines nor done a thing to address them.



How many 3rd world factories have you been too?? I've been to 5.. How many export managers have you had dinner with and discussed how they could meet their quotas? At least 5 for me. How many containers of equipment have you imported? No idea for me, lost count. It's very simple. I'm going to use an approach that has worked well in the past and give it a whirl. So far nothing to indicate that it won't produce a viable product as it has in the past. I have an open mind, do you?

veggie

  • Keep Calm and Start the Lister !
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 630
    • View Profile
Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2019, 02:26:55 PM »

Good luck with you project. I am sure that an enhanced quality Listeroid engine will have lots of buyers since there has been a shortage in the USA for several years now. Please keep us informed of your progress.
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

Willw

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
    • View Profile
Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2019, 03:54:56 PM »
I'm with Dieselspanner and Veggie.

Mr. Bolton give it a shot and please keep us informed; we will benefit either way, and you will benefit if it goes as you expect it to.

FWIW, a few years ago I used some of my retirement fund and took a chance and purchased 3 6/1 and 3 8/1 clones as well as several thousand dollars worth of parts for Listers and Petters from India.
It was a venture that I had pondered for quite some time, and I realized that the only way I would know for sure whether I could successfully import my own engines and parts would be to try.
Purchasing engines from the US vendors was out of the question as in addition to the usual fees that we hear about, I would then have to export them from the US and ship and import them here into the Cayman Islands. Was I successful? Yes. Did I learn something? Yes.

My point is Mr. Bolton wants to do something, he has been warned but he maintains his position, he will either succeed or fail and it will cost us nothing either way so lets watch and see what happens.

My 2 cents.
Daily driver '97 GMC W4 tipper on WVO/Kerosene mix.
6/1 clone standby generator.
Too many projects.

ses

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 54
    • View Profile
Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2019, 03:27:41 PM »
I have a few genuine Lister CS's for sale I brought back from the UK. Various states of repair I and pricing structures. My posting/threads are on the board.

I have no intention of hijacking this thread and wanted to say as a small businessman and entrepreneur I wholly support Graham at Bolton in his endeavors!

It must be noted that Gary at DES has been top notch as many of us know.

Finally, I also wanted to note I have no humane ideas for dealing with a problem like glort...

guest23837

  • Guest
Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2019, 09:47:50 PM »
I have a few genuine Lister CS's for sale I brought back from the UK. Various states of repair I and pricing structures. My posting/threads are on the board.

I have no intention of hijacking this thread and wanted to say as a small businessman and entrepreneur I wholly support Graham at Bolton in his endeavors!

It must be noted that Gary at DES has been top notch as many of us know.

Finally, I also wanted to note I have no humane ideas for dealing with a problem like glort...

Watch a little Australian TV and you will appreciate why Glort is out in his shed so much. Tinkering, fettling and thinking

ses

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 54
    • View Profile
Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2019, 03:16:42 PM »
Ha...Id wager you wouldn't be so windy with anyone face to face. Your keyboard protects your opinions well.

If I make that kangaroo hunt I'll look you up. It's be fun to properly relay some boundaries to you.

guest23837

  • Guest
Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2019, 04:29:48 PM »
Really? Fisticuffs? We are mature men that like old engines not chavs. WTF is wrong with you threatening a bloke because you disagree with what he says? That's real freedom. I read many things I disagree with hear loads of nonsense in many places but so what? If you don't like an author or journalist don't read his books or articles why come on here and set out to be offended and offensive?

AdeV

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 626
    • View Profile
Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2019, 07:24:29 PM »
Chaps, let's agree to let sleeping dogs lie on this one, eh, before I get a moderation request and actually have to do something about it...

Thanks.
Cheers!
Ade.
--------------
1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

guest23837

  • Guest
Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2019, 07:41:56 PM »
Chaps, let's agree to let sleeping dogs lie on this one, eh, before I get a moderation request and actually have to do something about it...

Thanks.
Apologies Ade!
P

sirpedrosa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 597
  • 21NOV2019 - Finally I hear that sound
    • View Profile
Re: New Listeroids for sale
« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2019, 02:38:47 AM »
Hi AdeV

I think you let yourself sleep, and now you're waking up grumpy.

The children grew up uneducated, and now you want to kick them?

Around here is a saying: "dogs bark and caravan goes by"

You don't happen to have the LR1 manual out there, do you? if you have, send it to me in PDF, with the thanks in advance.

Always considering you.
VP
By order of firing up:
Bernard 18A - 1968 (mama's water pump - year of my birth)
Petter PAZ1 - Jun 1967, 3HP, sn 416xxxx
Petter PAZ1 - Nov 1979, 3HP, sn 425xxxx
Lister 12/2 - 12651227, the pearl!