Author Topic: why did you buy a listeroid, or why do you want one?  (Read 23160 times)

cujet

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Re: why did you buy a listeroid, or why do you want one?
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2006, 02:15:25 PM »
Hey Mobile_Bob,

It is certainly not my intent to change the Lister design just for the sake of changing it.

rtqii said "A poorly engineered design may need corrective engineering" AND to that I want to add that a poorly constructed engine may need creative fixes.

If you are thinking about my roller rocker thread, sorry to cause you any giref at all. Really just looking for a way to fix my obvious problems.

I am sure I will find other long term problems with the design and construction after many long hours of use. In my mind, those too will require creative fixes.

It may very well be that I should strive to make the engine as original as possible. Meaning, I should chrome plate the bore, change cylinder heads until the rockers line up, find the proper spec for valve materials, and valve guides, etc. However, I don't know I could pull it off.

Chris

Chris
« Last Edit: August 04, 2006, 02:20:29 PM by cujet »
People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence

mobile_bob

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Re: why did you buy a listeroid, or why do you want one?
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2006, 04:09:26 PM »
Chris:

no apologies needed here, :)

actually i thought your thread was very interesting, and i got a lot out of it, and hope others did too.

i just failed to understand the rather changing priorities of an individual or two,  thats all, and had i not had this
terrible cold all week i probably would have been able to roll with it better.

as far and making needed changes and having to engineer those, that cool, it is inevitable that will happen for various reasons.

what i was trying to differntiate, was engineering fixes from those that look at the engine as a engineering plaything so to speak.

sort of like, before uncrating the engine, having a list of things one wants to reengineer for his own amusement.

hmmmm... yes i wanna develope a tuned exhaust, a tuned intake,,,, try different cam profiles, install hyd lifters,
turbo charge, run nitromethane,,,, etc..

all of which is just fine by me,,,, save maybe the nitro one :), to each his own,,, and i am all for experimentation, and learning or entertaining oneself.

i just think that sets the two groups apart, and makes it hard to follow some discussions without knowing if you are a guy that reengineers out of necessity to get the engine running reliably or conversely a guy that is going to reegineer every last part of the engine, as a learning tool or entertainment.

is the discussion based on practical or theoretical? that sort of thing.

as you know i was opposed to the idea of a roller tipped rocker, because i could see no need for it, initially....
only after things progressed, did it become apparent to me, that two other things were boiling to the top....
one was a need to reengineer because the rocker was so poorly made, and likely could not be fixed...
the other was a need to reegineer the rocker for no other apparent reason than it would be a learning/entertaining/cool thing

as you know even i came around to the idea, for the stated reasons, and offered idea's and help in developing a roller tipped rocker.
and i said if it was going to be done, lets do it right, but... that only came after concluding that there are those that want to reengineer.. and
that is ok on its own merit.

so you end up with basically three positions, all mixed in,,, some trying to arrive at a fix, some trying to reengineer, and some inbetween...
and the rest scratchin their heads wondering WTF

actually thinking about it now, it gets a bit funny.

this thread i hope has been constructive in that it keeps dialog open, and gives all of us a chance to understand each others priorities even tho
these may change as need arises.

thank you everyone for takng the time to respond.
be interesting to all get together for a convention some year.

i could just hear the debates now :)

bob g

otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

GuyFawkes

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Re: why did you buy a listeroid, or why do you want one?
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2006, 04:36:26 PM »

i could just hear the debates now :)


this is why gentleman collectors are always bastards.

because their shit doesn't have to work for a living it makes room for all sorts of pointless arguments.

if shit has to work for a living you end up with a consensus, force kyrdawn, at gun point, to get 20,000 hours out of a listeroid in the next 4 years and his attitude will change pronto, even if he has an unlimited budget, and he'll spend the last 3 months of slack time making everything Lister and the remaining 2.5 years praying he made it Lister enough and wishing he hadn't spend the first year and a bit dicking around with pie in the sky ideas.

=======================

There is a great leveller in the classic motorcycle field, the Ministry of Transport road worthiness test, add the requirement for minimum 5k miles a year and you just eliminated ALL the gentleman collectors....  did I say they are all bastards?
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Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

mobile_bob

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Re: why did you buy a listeroid, or why do you want one?
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2006, 05:32:47 PM »
Guy:

why don't you just tell us how ya really feel about gentlemen collectors??

:)

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

jimmer

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Re: why did you buy a listeroid, or why do you want one?
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2006, 05:38:23 PM »


this is why gentleman collectors are always bastards.

because their shit doesn't have to work for a living it makes room for all sorts of pointless arguments.

So  ....  are you a gentleman collector or is your SOM working for a living?


jim

slowspeed1953

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Re: why did you buy a listeroid, or why do you want one?
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2006, 07:26:46 PM »
I want one to charge batteries in a off grid site running every other day to top off battery state of charge.

Being that it will be my sole supply of power I am willing to make any modifications that will increase fuel economy and reduce mechanical failures before depending upon it. I am also very demanding of perfection and take pride in the fact that my surroundings reflect it.

I see everything as a plaything including a listeriod and the world as my playground, at the same time I am as serious as a heart attack about insuring the integrity/power of my home. If I am amused while performing any modifications deemed necessary, my life experiance will be that much more fufilled.

Best wishes
« Last Edit: August 05, 2006, 12:02:59 AM by slowspeed1953 »

GuyFawkes

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Re: why did you buy a listeroid, or why do you want one?
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2006, 07:46:27 PM »


this is why gentleman collectors are always bastards.

because their shit doesn't have to work for a living it makes room for all sorts of pointless arguments.

So  ....  are you a gentleman collector or is your SOM working for a living?


jim

It will be in about 4 weeks time, I was NEVER a gentleman collector, no interest at all in "showing" it.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

bbbuddy

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Re: why did you buy a listeroid, or why do you want one?
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2006, 01:15:47 AM »
We live off grid in AZ (near BruceM as it turns out!) and even though there are power poles 1/2 mile away we don't want to ever hook up to them.  We don't trust that things will always "be as they are" and also not too sure we will be able to afford grid power in our older years the way things are heading.

When I found Listeriods discussed on the 'net and showed my husband what I had found, we got excited about them.
Simple for non gear-heads to work on, reliable if prepared properly (thanks GeorgeB), and not subject to an endless modern supply stream to work the rest of our lives, we could not NOT get one!

We will be able to irrigate all we need with our 6/1 running for the most part on wvo, we will be able to recharge batteries on the cheap, and even run without batteries if TSHTF on the WVO and diesel we have on hand for many years.  Makes me feel very safe and secure indeed.  As to changes, well not too many. I don't really mind starting and stopping it, I do that now with a gas screamer.  We do want to put some safety shutdown features on so as not to ruin it should a problem develope while we are not standing over it.

I am so happy to have that 6/1!  ;D

maddy

dkwflight

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Re: why did you buy a listeroid, or why do you want one?
« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2006, 02:22:26 AM »
Hi this is something I have been wanting to do for some time.
If I run across a late model Blackstone diesel I will pick it up too! They are not as easy to find as the 'roid.
Running wvo will save me some $ too if I run it long enough.!
Dennis
28/2 powersolutions JKSon -20k gen head
Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

justsomeguy

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Re: why did you buy a listeroid, or why do you want one?
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2006, 09:08:03 PM »
Why I hope to have a  6/1 listeroid in the next 30 days:

Because I am still searching for the hobby that remains a hobby.

Sadly, the Listeroid project won't do that, but it's a step in the right direction, especially if it gets much more expensive than it should, doesn't work as well as it should, or takes 10X more time than it should.  If the hobby pays, then it's a job.  I'm shooting for this one to break even.  If it starts chewing up too much money, then I just won't operate it, and keep it around for a secondary use.  In the mean time, it will be a really nice low tech distraction away from the high tech world of internetworking, being a router-rat, ISP duties, and keeping a building full of servers running.

Primary use:

I have a data center that has a large, fast start high speed diesel generator, some gas turbines, and 2 weeks of fuel stored on site.  (3N generation capabilities, 2N fuel stores, 3N day tanks...  Overkill?  Yes.)  I have a need for medium temp heat, a need for multiple system isolation (eg, can't use HVAC waste heat) and I also have a need to burn through fuel stored on site every couple of years to keep the fuel fresh, regardless of how much biocide I use, and how often I pull fuel samples from the storage tanks.   So with a source of fuel that needs to be disposed of, and a demand for power that needs to be met, and a need for heat, this is kind of a no brainer.

First, the need for heat:  Since the big generator is fast start, it has a 6KW block heater that turns on at 100 degrees, and turns off at 120 degrees.  Keeping a 600HP monster sized engine block warm is not easy when it's in an uninsulated, and very ventilated outdoor enclosure.  Insulating would lower reliability due to possibility of fire, increased chances to provide habitat to rodents, etc.  The only way to have a reliable fast start diesel genet is to have it outdoors, and that takes lots of electric heat.  That's where the roid comes in.  It's a glorified fuel oil burning boiler!  The plan is to pour in place a cement powerhouse to mount a 6/1, with enough room for a future engine as well.  It will be built semi bunker style, about a foot below finished grade,  with tall walls for spill containment since it will also house some fuel handling/filtration/and storage.  It will also have a prefab concrete roof overhead to contain a fuel fire.  Exhaust heat exchanger will recover exhaust heat, to help heat lister engine coolant.  A coolant loop (pumped with a fract hp circ pump for efficiency and reliability) will push heat around to a fuel/engine oil heat exchanger to heat both, flow through insulated underground pipes to the a heat exchanger on the large genet to keep the coolants isolated.  I hope to seriously offset the block heater usage by dumping all of the roid's waste heat to the genet.  I'm going to go with 50% of a gallon of input fuel's BTUs as my recovered engine+ exhaust  heat goal.  The roid will have no backup radiator.  On a hot summer day, worst case, the big genset’s thermostats will open and thermosyphon enough heat away through the massive radiator.  I doubt that will ever happen, even on the hottest of summer days.

Using the "waste" horsepower,  ::)  the roid will drive an induction motor, and will grid tie on the "load" side of the transfer switch.  That way the big genet's transfer switch will give me all the utility isolation I need.  Undervoltage, overvoltage, underfrequency, overfrequency, it covers it all.  Also, I will place a drop out contactor on the lister powerhouse, with fuel solenoid on the lister, and in the event that the grid drops out for more than a few cycles, the listerplant will self isolate, and coast down.  I will do the same with a couple of heat/smoke detectors, oil level, excessive head temp, and the like.  Anything goes wrong, and the powerhouse isolates itself, the listeroid coasts down, the event is reported to facility SCADA, and someone will know about it before the roid coasts to a stop.  I will never ever back feed, as I use about 20X more power than the roid can produce at any given time.  In the event that strange things happen and we end up on gas turbine internal power and externally, diesel genet power, and lister power too, the roid would end up being connected connected to the big genet during an outage with zero facility power use.  In that case, the big genet will easily absorb the KW of the roid.  (The genet is rated to absorb 40KW of load... 10X more than the roid's output!) If the belt on the roid breaks, then it'll just sit there and put put along until it gets checked on.  No harm, no foul.  The amount of power the roid will produce at a given instant is miniscule compared to the other things going on around it.  But running 24/7/365, it will add up to significant amounts of energy.  In the event the roid breaks, catches on fire, or the like, the block heater on the big genet will operate as normal, no coolant will be lost from the big genet, and the distance will be far enough that a fire will pose no problems to the facility or the big genet.  If the roid breaks and ends up motoring off the grid, no problem.  It’s just some power lost until it gets checked on.  Even the energy to motor a roid for a week is minor compared to everything else being used on site.

Sound like a winning power plan(t)?

The spreadsheet math to back it up:

Assuming.......

6/1 listeroid, 1 quart per hour of fuel consumed, 50% heat reclaimed for a gallon of fuel consumed and a gallon of fuel at 120,000 BTU/hr, and an actual roid electrical output of 3KW....  (like my conservative numbers?)

BTU per gallon   120,000      
Gallons/hr     0.25      
BTU/hr   30,000   KW/hr   3kw elec
Heat Efficiency   0.5      
BTU/hr heat   15,000      
Elect heat offset KW    5kw heat      3kw elec.
Power Price   $0.06/kw      
$$ per hr   $0.30heat      $0.18 elec.
$$ Per gallon    $1.2      $0.72
         
         
Total Heat & Power $$ offset per gallon of fuel consumed $1.92

At 6 cents per KW hour, the roid will turn a gallon of fuel in to $1.92 worth of heat and power.  At 7 cents per KW hour, the roid will turn a gallon of fuel in to $2.24 of heat and power.  At 8 cents per KW hour (summertime) the roid will turn a gallon of fuel in to $2.56 of heat and power.

Assuming 50% average operating hours over the course of a year, worst case is that I "dispose" of fuel at the rate of:

Avg. Operating Factor   0.5
Avg. Gallons/hr   0.125
Avg. Gallons/day   3
Avg. Gallons/Month   91.3125  <----Incidentally, an old fuel oil tank I'll be using as a day tank is 250 gallons, so one month 100% operation will still not drain a full day tank)
Avg. Gallons Year   1,095.75

At 50% plant operation, 50% heat reclaimed per gallon, and 6 cents per KW/hr, that's $2,103.84 per year.  Assuming my time is free (it’s not!) hopefully over enough years, (10?) that will eventually pay for the listeroid, the accessories, and the powerhouse.  And provide me with some deep levels of satisfaction, and DISTRACTION, in the process.  As an uptime guru, I do enjoy seeing just how long things can remain in constant operation without human intervention. And that’s worth something.

It might take me a year of work to get it in operation, but overall, it’s probably one of the easiest projects I’ve ever tried to take on.

GuyFawkes

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Re: why did you buy a listeroid, or why do you want one?
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2006, 01:05:27 AM »

It might take me a year of work to get it in operation, but overall, it’s probably one of the easiest projects I’ve ever tried to take on.


First job on day one, have that cut into a steel plate with plasma, and set it into the ground before the listeroid plinth.

vbg.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

dkwflight

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Re: why did you buy a listeroid, or why do you want one?
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2006, 01:40:45 AM »
Hi justsomeguy
Sounds interesting. Keep us posted.
On keeping the fuel fresh, you might consider using some power from the Lister-oid to pump fuel from the main tank through filters and back to the main tank. This is known as "Polishing" the fuel. Recently there was a post about self cleaning filters from Purolater filters. Interesting. or maybe Gulf coast paper towel filters.
Dennis
PS How about PMing me I would like discuss some thing with you.
Thanks.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2006, 01:49:25 AM by dkwflight »
28/2 powersolutions JKSon -20k gen head
Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

Jim Mc

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Re: why did you buy a listeroid, or why do you want one?
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2006, 02:58:52 AM »
...Sound like a winning power plan(t)?...

 ...but overall, it’s probably one of the easiest projects I’ve ever tried to take on.


 <brutal>
Oh yeah, everything is easy sitting at the keyboard.  It's the doing that ain't so easy. 

In your spreadsheet I saw no allowance for the questioable, and most likely piss-poor reliability of  a Listeroid.  Come on, now.  A freakin’ data center relying on an Indian Listeroid?   I’m thinking you might want to leave that little tidbit out of the marketing plan for the facility.

You’re talking through your hat, dude.  THIS is one project that aint’t gonna happen.

</brutal>

Sounds interesting, keep us posted…




mobile_bob

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Re: why did you buy a listeroid, or why do you want one?
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2006, 06:06:58 AM »
this may well indeed be the toughest project you will ever be envolved in...

good luck though,,, there are those that will beat me for raining on your parade,,,, but that is the reality.

can it be done? yes,,, will it be the easiest thing you have ever done,,, no, unless you have to climb mount everest each and every day to get to work,,, then yes it will be easier,, but not by much... :)

the 10 year plan,, and the idea of making it go without human intervention aint gonna happen,,, you have to lube the valve train daily, or at least you should. that alone makes this a hands on engine.

i dont think you could do this even with one of Guys beloved original listers,,, fresh out of a crate, new old stock!

hey don't listen to me,, prove me wrong

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

justsomeguy

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Re: why did you buy a listeroid, or why do you want one?
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2006, 05:13:18 AM »
Hi justsomeguy
Sounds interesting. Keep us posted.
On keeping the fuel fresh, you might consider using some power from the Lister-oid to pump fuel from the main tank through filters and back to the main tank. This is known as "Polishing" the fuel. Recently there was a post about self cleaning filters from Purolater filters. Interesting. or maybe Gulf coast paper towel filters.
Dennis
PS How about PMing me I would like discuss some thing with you.
Thanks.


I polish, I rotate, I treat with biocide.  Yet the fuel still polymerizes, oxidizes, and generally degrades.  Time is not on my side. There are multiple isolated fuel tanks, and they each get polished with a portable pump/filter set I built.  In diesel fuel tanks, water happens.  I'm considering trying some desiccant breathers for the vent pipes though. Seems like a good idea in theory, but they're expensive.  Of course, as diesel prices increase, it gets more and more appealing.  Still though, it's probably better to polish, and burn up the fuel though.

Something's that always bugged me about keeping diesel tanks bug free is that they put fuel pickups off the bottom as a "feature" to keep gunk and water from being sucked up.  Picking the fuel up directly off the bottom would get any water droplets directly in to the water separator of the generator, where it belongs, so it can be removed during regular maintenance.  Otherwise, it just builds up on the bottom of the tank, and promotes microbe growth.    Another topic for another forum I suppose.