Author Topic: Water boost pump help please  (Read 12110 times)

bbbuddy

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Re: Water boost pump help please
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2006, 12:29:20 AM »
Thanks guys!
Bob believe it or not I checked out pumps at McMasters, but somehow I missed the very ones you found!
Have spent many hours doing searches over the past year, must have been groggy when I was looking there... I need to call them to find out what the output pressure is.

Hey Ray, I did some searching at the Indian sites I could find, but like here, most of the pumps are to move a little bit of water or A BUNCH of water.  Trying to match my needs has been "frustratng".

I have even been discussing my wants/needs with irrigation"experts", mostly they just say "get a bigger well pump".
We have a 1 horse pump.  I matched the 6/1 to run it.  NOT going to start all over with pump and new Listeroid....

again, thanks to all!
maddy

sid

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Re: Water boost pump help please
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2006, 02:11:36 AM »
try ebay for pumps. just checked and they had about 4800 listed// you might get lucky//sid
15 hp fairbanks morris1932/1923 meadows mill
8 hp stover 1923
8 hp lg lister
1932 c.s bell hammer mill
4 hp witte 1917
5 hp des jardin 1926
3 hp mini petters
2hp hercules 1924
1 1/2 briggs.etc

rpg52

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Re: Water boost pump help please
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2006, 03:23:21 AM »
bbbuddy,

I did something similar once.  The problem is that there are so many variables, it is difficult to calculate what pump will do what you want.  E.g., measure the length of pipe run, pipe diameter, # of sprinklers, flow necessary for each sprinkler, head (elevation change), etc., etc.  It becomes mind boggling for those that are math challenged, like myself. 

The fixed portion is the Listeroid hp, and maybe your existing piping.  Sprinklers can be changed, the pulley size can be changed, etc..  Get a pump that seems adequate, and then start putting sprinkler heads on it until it seems right.  If you have that tank full of water, you will get it figured out by the time you've emptied it once.  Like I said, it isn't rocket science, after you play with it a bit, you will get it doing what you want.  I'll guarantee you that you will change it several times by the time you're finished anyway, even if you did do all the calculations first.  Good luck.
Ray
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

hotater

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Re: Water boost pump help please
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2006, 03:29:03 AM »
bbbob--

Most pumps have a chart that gives head and gallons per min.  To get pressure from head divide by  .43, I think it is.
There's all kinds of flow control pumps that you can adjust output on by adjusting motor speed.  
  If you're irrigating just go to the irrigation pump supply place and find out how many gallons per minute at what pressure or head you need to run the nozzles you have.  Total up the number of nozzles and the sizes and the spacing and how much of what kind of  pipe you have and he'll have a chart that'll give you exactly what you need.   The charts are so close you have to allow for altitude!
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

bitsnpieces1

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Re: Water boost pump help please
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2006, 06:50:04 PM »
  The charts for the pumps in McMaster have a listing for each pump, (x) gpm at (y) ft. of head.  Hotaters right the irrigation place (or website) would give you the flowrate at some pressure.  Add together what you want to use, then find a pump that will get close to that number of gpm & head,ft.  Adjust the speed as needed.
Lister Petter AC1, Listeroid 12/1, Briggs & Stratton ZZ, various US Mil. surplus engines. Crosley (American) 4cyl marine engine(26hp).

xyzer

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Re: Water boost pump help please
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2006, 07:27:05 PM »
BBBUDDY,
 I think if you put on a booster pump suctioning will increase the GPM on your submersable to a point, less head. Even tho there is no preasure at the well head it will in effect reduce the head and increase the GPM....make sence?.....so I think you will have more elbow room than you think. Also I didn't understand are you running the submersible with the 6/1 and adding a belt drive booster pump to it?..
Vidhata 6/1 portable
Power Solutions portable 6/1
Z482 KUBOTA

dkwflight

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Re: Water boost pump help please
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2006, 03:08:55 AM »
Once upon a time ;D1`worked in a quarry. The hole, main pit was getting too deep for the 100 hp pump to push enough water out of the pit. It got so the pump was run 24/7 and not pushing enough watyer out. They added a second 100hp pump identical to the firest in line. The discharge of the bottom pump connected to the suction of the second. The bottom pump was at the 250' level, the second was at the 125' level.
The combination worked well. The bottom pump was primed and started first. then the second.
The point of my story is a second pump will act as a booster from the first.
I don't think the size of the pumps have to corespond too closely if the second is smaller than the first.
Dennis
28/2 powersolutions JKSon -20k gen head
Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

bbbuddy

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Re: Water boost pump help please
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2006, 06:57:50 AM »
Interesting, xyzer, I know what you are saying, but I thought ( I read it somewhere) that suction in a submersible well pump line was bad for the pump...so I've been trying really hard to find a pump just under the flow rate I get at the well head.

Are you sure sucking water above the submersible (at the well head) wouldn't cause cavitation in the well pump?

bitsnpieces1 the charts list "x" gpm at "x" head but no mention of at what pressure...
Head = 0 for my purposes.  Needed pressure is at least 40psi.

rpg52,  pressure loss iin the lines will be zero, the pipe all runs downhill at a rate that exactly cancels loss in my 1 1/4" lines.
The number of sprinkler heads will depend on the flow rate at high enough pressure.  Right now if I depend on my well pump, I can get 24 gpm at 20 psi, but only about 6 gpm at 40 psi.  I did find some sprinkler heads that work at 20 psi, but  would prefer more water, higher pressure.(=more acres irrigated)

hotater

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Re: Water boost pump help please
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2006, 02:35:07 PM »
bbbuddy---

The "head" of your sub pump is the distance from the pump to where the water exits the pipe.  "Head" is the "drag" on the water.
  It takes  .43 pounds per square inch it make one foot of head,  43psi means the water will rise in the pipe 100 LESS the mechanical drag on the pipe.  SO,  If you're pumping from a hundred feet down you need about 45 psi to get water to the surface.  To have 40psi AT the surface you'd have to have 80something psi at the pump.   SO,  a if a 45psi pump will move fifty gallons a minute at 45psi (0 head)  it will produce smaller amounts of water the further up the hill it goes until at something over a hundred feet of head the flow will be zero.

The danger of booster pumping is cavitation of the bottom pump's turbines which unloads the bearings and effects cooling of the motor.  It's not supposed to be done.

The answer is still to pump from the well into a cistern and then using a common and very cheap jet pump to pressurize the irrigation lines OR a pedestal pump driven by the Lister.

For information--- I run a mini-Petter 3.5 HP pump at my place for some irrigation.  It will only produce 18 psi at six feet of head.   (but 80gpm!)
  That tells me my 'cisterns' (Cheese factory poly tanks) can be no higher than about 40 feet higher than the pump, but that 40 feet will give me enough head to allow drip irrigation in poly lines by gravity.

The "drag" of the pipe cancels out a certain amount of 'head'.   Black poly pipe is the best, but there's still some loss that has to be compensated for.  Valves, elbows, tees and unions add drag to the water and cancels out more head.

Is there any way you could put water storage at a high point?    I pump to two 'cisterns' positioned 132 feet up on the canyon wall and then all irrigation and domestic use water is gravity fed back down at 56 psi.  That means I have water without a pump or generator running, which is nice.   I know some folks in Arizona that bought a long skinny water tank and had it stood on end with a crane to make a 'tower'.   It works.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

bitsnpieces1

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Re: Water boost pump help please
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2006, 05:19:13 PM »
Interesting, xyzer, I know what you are saying, but I thought ( I read it somewhere) that suction in a submersible well pump line was bad for the pump...so I've been trying really hard to find a pump just under the flow rate I get at the well head.

Are you sure sucking water above the submersible (at the well head) wouldn't cause cavitation in the well pump?

bitsnpieces1 the charts list "x" gpm at "x" head but no mention of at what pressure...
Head = 0 for my purposes.  Needed pressure is at least 40psi.

rpg52,  pressure loss iin the lines will be zero, the pipe all runs downhill at a rate that exactly cancels loss in my 1 1/4" lines.
The number of sprinkler heads will depend on the flow rate at high enough pressure.  Right now if I depend on my well pump, I can get 24 gpm at 20 psi, but only about 6 gpm at 40 psi.  I did find some sprinkler heads that work at 20 psi, but  would prefer more water, higher pressure.(=more acres irrigated)

 The "x" feet of head is equivalent to psi, same as gms is equivalent to lbs.  Where you see 'ft of head' multiply the number by the 0.43 mentioned by hotater to get 'psi'.  Head is used in pumping liquid situations because you can have a negative head and it's easier to make calculations from a topographic map (measured in feet).  Take shallow well pumps (non-jet type) for example:  Say you have a 100' head pump.  If the pump sits 10' above the water, you subtract 10 from 100 to give 90.  Which is the positive pressure you can get on the discharge of the pump.  100ft x 0.43psi/ft = 43 psi discharge.  This is related to the amount of vacuum you can get at sea level.  A positive displacement (piston) pump can lift water about 27 ft before popping a vacuum and losing prime.  Centrigugal impeller pumps are at less, say about 20 ft at best (assuming you start with a fully primed pump). 
  In a submersible pump, the pump sits below the level of the water and !VERY IMPORTANT! requires the water to keep cool.  Therefore you do not EVER want to have a negative suction (pump is above the water level) on a submersible pump.  However, if your submersible sits, say 20 ft below the water surface, that is 20 ft of positive suction pressure which can be added to the actual output of the pump itself.  Say you have a submersible pump that is rated at 100 ft head and it sits 50 ft below the water level.  You start with 50 ft of head and the pump adds 100 ft to it for a total discharge head of 150 ft.  NOTE: the pump still only adds 100 ft. NOW, you need to know the level of non-water above the submersible pump which has to be subtracted from the head.  Say you have a submersible rated at 100 ft sitting 20 ft below the water level, BUT the water level is 10 ft below the discharge.  You add 20 ft, then add 100 ft, then subtract 10 ft to get 110 ft total discharge head.  +20 +100 -10 = 110
  PLUS, when the submerssible starts running it will pull the water level down in the well.  So, you need to know the distance from the discharge point to the suction of the submersible, and the distance of the water level AFTER RUNNING for a few minutes (known as 'drawdown') from the discharge point.  In the above example the total distance from discharge point to water level is 10 ft, the distance from there to the suction is 20 ft (plus a few feet for cooling) [or 30 fet from discharge point].  So the pump just sitting there has the water level up to 20 ft above its discharge, = 20 ft positive head(in relation to the pump itself), then it has to move it 10 ft, which is a negative number for head,  then the pump itself adds the 100 ft for a total of 110 ft. 
  The upshot is that you can plumb the suction of the second pump directly to the discharge of the first pump.  AS LONG AS, at no point will the water level fall enough to allow the submersible to run hot and possibly burn out.  Somewhere along the way whoever drilled the well should have supplied you with some numbers for the static level of the water, the MAX pulldown volume ( max flow, or some such) and the pulldown depth. 

  Now you have 42 gpm at 0 head (o psi) [actually think of it as 0.01 psi].  So the submersible pump sits down far enough and has power enough that the positive head at suction, minus the negative head( lifting from the top water level to discharge) point is sufficient to produce 42 gpm at 0.01 ft(psi) head.  If you can find the pump curve (or rating chart) for the pump you have it should give you the head it will produce at 42 gpm(or maybe 40).  That is the total discharge head that your pump is presently putting out.  Now you want to add 40-50 psi (92.27 - 115.33 ft, head).  So, you're looking for a pump that will produce 40-50 psi (92.27 - 115.33 ft, head)  at 42 gpm.    OR LESS  The 'or less' will make sure that you don't pull the water level down far enough to expose the submersible pump and overheat it. 
  NOW, if you can arrange it so that you can run the submersible pump into an open tank (only has to be a small opening to atmosphere) and then use the second pump to pull from there you completely eliminate the problem of running the water level low and burning up the submersible.   
  Look for a second pump that will give you a flow of 40gpm at 92-115 ft, head (40-50 psi):  SAY 40 gpm at 100 ft, head. 


i know it's long, but that's what it takes. And I hope it helps.  That's also why I suggested you find a municipal water plant, the operators there deal in these kinds of calculations a lot. 

Note: Your situation is comparable to one of those plants because they have a submersible(most likely)  well pump that runs to the treatment process (holding tank), which then feeds into a booster pump to supply the water pressure to the pipes. 
« Last Edit: August 11, 2006, 05:22:44 PM by bitsnpieces1 »
Lister Petter AC1, Listeroid 12/1, Briggs & Stratton ZZ, various US Mil. surplus engines. Crosley (American) 4cyl marine engine(26hp).

bbbuddy

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Re: Water boost pump help please
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2006, 07:54:29 PM »
bbbuddy---

The "head" of your sub pump is the distance from the pump to where the water exits the pipe.  "Head" is the "drag" on the water.
 
hotater, my comment head=0 is in reference to a booster pump, NOT my well pump.

Quote
The danger of booster pumping is cavitation of the bottom pump's turbines which unloads the bearings and effects cooling of the motor.  It's not supposed to be done.

That is what I thought.

Quote
The answer is still to pump from the well into a cistern and then using a common and very cheap jet pump to pressurize the irrigation lines OR a pedestal pump driven by the Lister.

Yes the pedestal pump is what I have been looking for.  Just trying to match my well ouput as close as I can.  My well and tank are already at the top of my property.  I don't have the elevation differences that you have.



bbbuddy

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Re: Water boost pump help please
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2006, 08:10:46 PM »
 
  The upshot is that you can plumb the suction of the second pump directly to the discharge of the first pump.  AS LONG AS, at no point will the water level fall enough to allow the submersible to run hot and possibly burn out.  Somewhere along the way whoever drilled the well should have supplied you with some numbers for the static level of the water, the MAX pulldown volume ( max flow, or some such) and the pulldown depth. 

We have zero drawdown, unless we were to try to pump about 1200 gpm.  The static water level is 79', the pump is at 110.  No worries there.

 
Quote
  Look for a second pump that will give you a flow of 40gpm at 92-115 ft, head (40-50 psi):  SAY 40 gpm at 100 ft, head. 

Yes that was my original question.  Did anyone know where to get a pump with those specs.  I did many searches to no avail.

All the pumps I had found were either very high psi, low flow, or very high flow, low psi, or VERY expensive.  The one from McMasters may work.  I need to call them.
Yes, all I want to do is "turn it on" after the well pump is running and let it go for 16-18 hours at a time. KISS principle.  The less they are matched in output, the more complicated it gets, and the more to go wrong if I am not babysitting it all the time.
Quote

bitsnpieces1

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Re: Water boost pump help please
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2006, 09:19:45 PM »
  Hang on, still hunting.  The size pump you need is out there.  But, you're right so far it looks like $4-500 or more to get one.  I'm used to finding them at Industrial Supply places, it's a lot harder looking at consumer sources.  Maybe I can get out to a supply house soon.   
Lister Petter AC1, Listeroid 12/1, Briggs & Stratton ZZ, various US Mil. surplus engines. Crosley (American) 4cyl marine engine(26hp).

hotater

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Re: Water boost pump help please
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2006, 12:45:27 AM »
I was at the pump place today and ask the tech guy about your situation.  He says it's easy to do with one of the variable speed pumps, but to do it for less that $600 or so in VERY hard.  He said the new VSDs have a psi dial on them.  It will maintain that pressure, but if the demand goes too long without water to meet it it automatically shuts down, but will re-start automatically, too.
  The FIRST thing he ask--- "why don't she pump to a tank then use a $10 jet pump to irrigate?'   It was too much to explain!   They're the dealers for the big poly tanks that farmers use for exactly that purpose here....one pump takes water out of the ditch and transfers to a pond or tanks.  (low head, high volume)  The second pump takes water from the tanks and pressurizes it enough to run the pivots.
  The land UPhill from the canals is worth 25% of that below the ditches.  Pumping water is EXpensive!

7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

bitsnpieces1

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Re: Water boost pump help please
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2006, 08:59:10 PM »
 A couple of links: 
http://www.thomasnet.com/prodsearch.html?cov=NA&which=prod&what=booster+centrifugal+pump&navsec=search

http://www.thomasnet.com/nsearch.html?cov=NA&what=Pumps%3A+Booster&heading=64300403&navsec=prodsearch

These are from 'The Thomas Register' , a listing of American Manufacturers.  The first one is for "booster centrifugal pump".  The second is for straight " "pumps:booster".  I ran across several pumps you might look at, however they don't have a price listing.  Judging from the pump curves, you want a moderate head, high volume, engine driven pump.  Hopefully this will give you some help on finding one for you.  Remember you can allways drive one at a lower rpm as long as the gpm capability is there in the curve( one group of them was a good match for pressure, but, not one of them could go over about 35gpm).
Lister Petter AC1, Listeroid 12/1, Briggs & Stratton ZZ, various US Mil. surplus engines. Crosley (American) 4cyl marine engine(26hp).