Author Topic: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?  (Read 26849 times)

Rob PetterPJ2

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #45 on: October 29, 2018, 06:11:33 PM »
Glort

I'm of the opinion that your reply is rude, indeed, as you suspected, but then, you didn't care.
Your remark about the level of embarrassment is way out of line. You fill in for others too quickly. I'm very embarrassed. Still, I want to be honest.

To answer to your concern about the injectors.
This is how I got the engine. Understanding that three holes may deliver fuel different than four holes, I measured the delivered fuel of each, by letting turn on the start engine, and let the fuel be spit into two of those thin laboratory glasses, that make measuring liquids easier. I did that over and over again, and adjusted the delivery of the two fuel pumps according to it.

Pistons not reaching the same height.
This is how I got the engine. One of the pistons rods is a fraction shorter than the other, as I had guessed it was. It has nothing to do with the bearings. The rods aren't exactly equal. Noticing the difference, I took the shims, that were there when I got the engine, away, there, and put them under the other cylinder, to equal the bump clearances, and with the cylinder head gaskest, that I cut from material especially made for cylinder head gaskets, that I only do not remember the name of, because I bought it years ago, from a shop for Classics and old timers, after which they were exactly right, according dieselgmans notes.
I've been endlessly measuring the bump clearance in all kind of ways, to get to the 1 mm, and I was happy to see the engine fire at the first attempt, the two cylinders responding the same way, with equal force, and the cylinders warming up equally, as never happened before.

Suspecting the pistons to be slightly different
I had been measuring the pistons sitting in the cylinders and came to the conclusion they've not exactly the same diameter. I had measured them at different spots. My main conclusion was: they're different.
Well, THEY ARE. But why?
Now that I took the cylinders and pistons all off, again, and slide the pistons through the cylinders (WITHOUT THE RINGS), one immediately feels a difference. Piston 1 has to be pushed, doesn't like to go through, but will with a continuous push. Piston 2 slides through easily.
For Piston one, I can not imagine it expanding a bit through heat and then still going through. It seems to have its maximum width already.
Now I am aware there could be a reason for piston 1: it's damaged by the seizing. May be it got deformed, but....

But let me tell you:
BEFORE ANY TEST RUN a POSSIBLE PROBLEM WAS NOTICED by me, with THAT PISTON!
When I put the new pistons in the very first time, when I reassembled the pistons and cylinders I noticed getting piston 1 into the cylinder was more difficult than piston 2. And I told the engine revision garage right away. When turning the flywheel, piston 1 would lift the heavy cylinder up. Remember, they said it was "not unusual". They had said this happens sometimes when they assemble engines and they didn't think much of it. They had actually said sometimes force is needed to get a piston in, while another pitons easily slides in into the cylinder next to it. For me THEY were the specialists that I thought I had to trust, for them doing this work day in day out.
I think my suspicion was more right than their denial.

Blame?
I have already written about this, but when I called them about the problem of the broken piston, it was THEM, the specialists, telling me what they could do for me: bring the pistons, and the cylinders and we have a look.
I went there. They said: We'll measure the things, check things out, and you pay 40 euro for that and our advise.
When I came back after a few days they presented me with their idea: because of the scratches in the cylinder wall, we'll have to hone them. We'll search for new, slightly bigger pistons.
And when they found the piston supply shop, they let me know the price for the pistons, the shipping and the honing, and I said OK and then they went to do their specialists thing.
They didn't ask for measures. They gave me the impression they knew what to do and how to do it. Their workplace is a hall full of engines they are fixing (I hope). I earlier had good experience with them.
I don't know how they decided about the measures for the honing, how deep to go, how much the clearance should be. They seemed to know what they were doing!

Did they supply the rings? Yes, they came with the pistons they had ordered.
No, the ring gaps I did not put in the wrong positions. I could figure out all by myself, what was the logical thing to do, there.

If new honing clearly has to be done, then I'll be ready to pay for it again, when they think they have done it right the first time, even when it doesn't seem to have the right clearance.

Glort, thanks for your advises, so far.
You added a whole list of things to check. I have that list already. It's all in the Lister LD manual that I have mentioned a few times.
You forgot one thing: the fuel. That I should put diesel in.

BTW, the tank was loaded with red diesel, when I got the boat. I brought it away. I had to clean the tank anyway. And the fuel pipe. And the filters.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 03:25:18 PM by Rob PetterPJ2 »

guest23837

  • Guest
Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #46 on: October 29, 2018, 09:11:18 PM »
Is it possible that someone had replaced a barrel at some stage in the past? If you switch barrels do the pistons level correctly? Measure the conrods and barrels and see if theres a difference. Glort is a good bloke albeit with a low frustration tolerance.

guest23837

  • Guest
Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #47 on: October 29, 2018, 09:43:02 PM »
Glort

I'm of the opinion that your reply is rude, indeed, as you suspected, but then, you didn't care.

I apologise.  I really did not mean to be rude and if I was I am sincerely sorry.

Dripping sarcasm and bitter irony I love it!

Rob PetterPJ2

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #48 on: October 30, 2018, 11:00:36 AM »
Is it possible that someone had replaced a barrel at some stage in the past? If you switch barrels do the pistons level correctly? Measure the conrods and barrels and see if theres a difference.

Hi Johndoh
it has become a long thread with lots of text. It says somewhere I measured everything (barrels, pistons) and, together with there not being any freeplay in the piston rods' bearings, I was left with only one conclusion: the piston rods aren't equal, and that's why the pistons don't reach the same height in the barrels. They don't even LOOk equal. There's a slight difference in shape (a light curve in one), though they show the same code, "P57" and a "J" on them.
Now I'd be surprised if someone would say the light curve in that one rod (think of a saber) would have been caused by a mishap. Though, were it straight, it may just reach the same height as the other one... That's one for you, Glort, to add to the list ;-)!

So this engine has definitely been doctored on by a creative mechanic of the ship line it came from (in a life boat). As I wrote earlier one of the two bolts connecting oil banjos to the cylinder heads was wrong as well. A fraction too big and 6 mm shorter than the other one. Thereby damaging it's thread and by the latest re-assembly, causing oil to leak. Therefor I'm waiting for Jim Perkins delivery of an original bolt.
The old pistons weren't equal either. One was original Lister Petter, had this name engraved on it), while other one, the broken one, had only a number engraved.
I see no reason to believe that one of the cylinder barrels were ever replaced. They're identical.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 01:40:14 PM by Rob PetterPJ2 »

Rob PetterPJ2

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #49 on: October 30, 2018, 11:58:31 AM »
I sure understand your frustration, Glort, when you observe this guy, me, treating an old Petter as a learning object. I indeed thought that taking the thing apart and putting it back together in the reverse order would do the job. But what kept me busy was also: what was the cause, or were the causes, of the old piston to break? Why that one piston and not the other one? And that I had to check whatever could be checked, like
- equal fuel delivery
- fuel injection timing
- oil supply, oil leaks
- type of oil
- compression
- valves
- exhaust pipe
It was noticeable, due to the blue smoke, that there was a problem there, before this shit happened. A friend, very experienced in renovating classic cars and engines, helped me adjust the valves. I talked about the blue smoke to the owner of the oldest oil shop in town, having all the various oils for the old classic engines, and he suggested I should try thicker oil, for the engine having worn out. There was logic in it, so I did. Using the thicker oil may have been wrong, for being a possible cause for even quicker overheating.
While on a long boating trip, the engine had severely overheated, and seized, when the air cooling had been accidentally blocked and I had not seen it, steering at the front of the boat.
Since then, the engine kept heating up quicker, and the exhaust smoking more (and blue). I needed 9 hours of boating to get the boat home, which I did in steps, altered with cooling periods. And then one cylinder showed to be overheating extremely fast, making it clear there was a mayor problem in there. And then I found that one piston being broken.
And that's when I got my confrontation with the unexpected fine details of the Zen of Diesel Engine Assembly...
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 01:44:45 PM by Rob PetterPJ2 »

guest23837

  • Guest
Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #50 on: October 30, 2018, 05:28:54 PM »
Was there any rust or water in the cylinder or sump? conrods arent easy to bend in service usually hydro-locking is the cause in my experience. You'll have to start at the beginning with 2 equal conrods and machined bores. 

Rob PetterPJ2

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2018, 01:54:52 AM »
Was there any rust or water in the cylinder or sump? conrods arent easy to bend in service usually hydro-locking is the cause in my experience. You'll have to start at the beginning with 2 equal conrods and machined bores.

Hi Johndoh
Water in the cylinder? Not that I know. Not in my time, at least. By me, the engine was always used in a dry place.
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/how-can-hydrolocking-occur-and-why-is-it-a-potential-engine-killer/
When I see the pictures of the bent piston rods at this webpage, mine is just very slightly bent. Not as bad as any of the examples there. As I wrote before, it results in a difference of only 1 mm in length. It even looks like it's made like that. But a bent rod, just to connect two points in this engine, doesn't make sense. So it's bent by some accident. Jeee. When, and by what, I have no idea. The piston that sat on it, was not the broken one. I guess it was bent somewhere in the 40 years before I had it.

The more I learn about this engine, the more I feel like selling it as scrap and getting me an other one built in!

Thanks for the tip!
Cheers
Rob


guest23837

  • Guest
Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2018, 08:30:09 AM »
A VW 1.9 diesel indirect injection engine can be got here for about €50.00 Wiring consists of the starter wire and the wire for the cut off solenoid. In a car they return north of 50 MPG. These are simple engines to work on too and are water cooled. They idle about 850 RPM have about 68 HP and a load of torque. They aren't governed like a stationary engine but I bet glort is right it would work in a boat. (might need an electric fan in a confined space)

Rob PetterPJ2

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2018, 09:36:33 AM »
The more I learn about this engine, the more I feel like selling it as scrap and getting me an other one built in!

 The new piston that was scuffed and chipped, was that attached to this rod by any chance?

If you take the engine out, replacing it with a newer, smaller, lighter water cooled unit would have many benefits.
Water cooling would be quieter for a start and if you live on the boat you could use the cooling water for heating the Boat and even showering if it has one.

As a matter of interest, How is the engine compartment air Circulated on your boat?  Does it just have big Vents on the deck that push air through with the movement of the craft of is there some sort of fan forcing air through?


Hi Glort,

the old, broken piston as well as the new, rubbed off piston were on the other rod, not the bent one.

I used to be happy with the air cooling, for it being simpler. A pump less that could malfunction, and less pipes to worry about, like leaking, getting stuffed, freeze, forgetting valves to open or close.
A later project would have been, to give the hot air two options out: one straight out, and one through a system through the boat, for heating.

Since it was just an open life boat, the engine was covered with a fiber glass case, and the fan of the flywheel pressing the air along the cylinders and out at the side. Not a place where you wanted to be sitting.
Since I built a cabin over the boat, it couldn't stay like that, and have the hot air fill the cabin, so I made a noise absorbing case around the engine, and built a system that reversed the stream of air, so that it sucked out the hot air through a wide chimney.

There's one problem with new investments in an other fuel driven engine or spending much on this one. Amsterdam wants to forbid having any boats with fuel driven engines and allow electric engines only. First they aimed at 2020 for this rule. But it is being delayed. Till when, we don't know. But the thousands and thousands of boats in the many canals have no loading unit nearby. The boats become worthless. At the same time, the city raised the tax for fuel driven boats to 5 times and makes a lot money from the boats it has criminalized (Like with the cars in London). Maybe that's the reason for the delay: the council counts on the tax revenues it gets from the fuel driven engines and already knows on what great projects (of friends..) to spend it on..
If this law passes, most people will try to sell their boat around the same time and no one will want to buy one...

This is why I thought I have this engine fixed and sell the boat and get me small one (because of the size of it I pay way more tax than I could have envisioned when I bought it, before Amsterdam started to raise the tax 5x) when it may still be possible. I thought it would be harder to sell a boat with a rotten engine.

It may be nice to have an electric engine for short trips through the Amsterdam canals, but not long trips. It makes a lot of boat owners, 99% of whom have their boat in 'their canal' near their home, pissed at the Amsterdam council. It's the destruction of capital. Where would they load the batteries? I now need a cable of 50 meters (over the street) to get from my apt to the battery of my boat, or power the tools. I'm lucky to have it that nearby For the bigger boats the electric engine and batteries cost a lot.
It's the uncertainty of the near future law what's disturbing. Also, as soon as 'everyone has an electric engine, they'll raise the tax for it as high as now for the fuel driven boats!
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 10:53:43 AM by Rob PetterPJ2 »

sirpedrosa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 863
  • 21NOV2019 - Finally I hear that sound... again
    • View Profile
Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2018, 10:22:45 AM »
Hi Rob

If you change engines do not forget to match the weight of the current engine with the next one, even if it is necessary to add ballast.

It is necessary to keep in mind the laws of archimedes and dynamics.

And yes, an air-cooled gives less problems, especially in the channels that are shallow.

BR
VP
By order of firing up:
Bernard 18A - 1968 (mama's water pump - year of my birth)
Petter PAZ1 - Jun 1967, 3HP, sn 416xxxx
Petter PAZ1 - Nov 1979, 3HP, sn 425xxxx
Lister 12/2 - 12651227, the pearl!
Deutz MAH 914, 1952 - Zündfix in chamber and go (7Mai2023).

mike90045

  • Mendocino Metro
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1594
  • Mmmm BBQ
    • View Profile
    • Mikes Solar PV page
Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #55 on: October 31, 2018, 02:34:48 PM »
here's a theory concerning a bent rod and a replaced piston:

Starting Fluid (ether)

At some point, someone may have dosed the engine with ether while attempting to start it.   The ether fired, the engine broke a piston and bent a rod.

dieselspanner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 726
    • View Profile
Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #56 on: October 31, 2018, 09:29:35 PM »
+1 for the bent rod being caused by a lung full of 'Angels Breath'

I've got an old Mccormick that had been well abused, when I pulled it apart one of the main bearing caps was broken in two, it had to have been the huge amounts ether (Start Pilot, ect)

I rebuilt it farmyard style, not having line boring kit I 'machined' the hump off the cap with an angle grinder and made a 'strongback' out of 1" square bar and bolted the bugger down as hard as I dare with plenty of Loctite to fill the gaps and lock the threads, 3 summers on and she's still holding together.......

As for the vehicle engine in a boat, I put a Perkins Prima, 2 liter DI from a small van (Meastro) in a 14 ton, 45' Dutch barge and it performed faultlessly for 9 years.

Non turbo and using the original water pump to circulate the cooling water through 20 meters of 2" pipe as a keel cooler, it was great. The only mod I had to make was having the prop re pitched a whole lot finer, the Perkins wanted to rev a bit more freely than the Merc unit it replaced.

As for the 'New Diesel Free Regulations' could you get away with having the boat as a hybrid?
Leave the diesel motor where it is and belt drive the prop shaft with a DC motor with the gearbox in neutral (assuming you have a 'box that will tolerate it, some have the lube pump driven off the input side) . When you run the diesel engine the motor could be used to recharge the batteries or you could run the diesel motor as a generator to charge the batteries (using a very small bank - who's going to legislate?) and propel the boat with the electric motor, keeping within the letter of the law, if not the spirit. After all you only need to leave the 'exclusion zone' and then you can return to the original system.

Cheers
Stef

Cheers Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

Rob PetterPJ2

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #57 on: October 31, 2018, 10:51:04 PM »
here's a theory concerning a bent rod and a replaced piston:

Starting Fluid (ether)

At some point, someone may have dosed the engine with ether while attempting to start it.   The ether fired, the engine broke a piston and bent a rod.

Smart!
Yep, the guy who sold me the boat started the engine a few times for me, with start spray. I never used it, because I then read one shouldn't.

Rob PetterPJ2

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 40
    • View Profile
Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #58 on: October 31, 2018, 11:10:06 PM »
It sounds like the thing will be worth nothing and you'll have to fire sale it anyway. Whoever does buy it will probably have to replace the engine.
Get it running and sell as is.  Might also be worthwhile looking at what you could get for it now as against what you will have to spend on it to get it going.
Might be better just to take a lesser price and save yourself the headaches.

I saw that there are two Lister Petter part resellers in The Netherlands, that sell also the old stuff.
Now I think,

Plan A could be: go with the slightly bent rod and guess it won't break, since it hasn't done so yet in 4 years, get me a new piston again, and hone the barrels according what the manual will say.
Or get me a new rod as well, if it's not too expensive and when I can put it in while the engine stays where it is. The block has doors on either side, I think I can reach the nuts of the rod on either side.

Plan B: maybe I should take the hole bloody monster apart, as the job for the winter, check all details, clean it all, and see if I discover the cause of it being too hard to start by cranking it by hand (without start pilot, as the dealer who sold me the boat did!), and, if its worth it, rebuild it all and make it look gorgious and function well.

I wish Perkin's shipment would be delivered (the manual especially!)
I'll keep you guys posted!

guest23837

  • Guest
Re: New pistons Petter PJ2, block after short time engine running. Clearance?
« Reply #59 on: October 31, 2018, 11:44:16 PM »
I think the barrels will need rebored rather than honed. As for the rod it will affect compression and possibly make the engine run poorly, a bent conrod is a weakened conrod. A new conrod isn't too expensive. You may need to check the valves to make sure they are sealing properly and are in serviceable condition. From experience there really aren't any shortcuts to get the engine running right, but it would be worth it.