What is the EPA regulation on importing Listeroids currently?

[bitsnpieces1]

  Here's where we should go along with the Agri-Busineses.  Do you really think the EPA will eliminate every diesel engine driven irrigation system tomorrow.  The people in California depend on these kinds of engines to keep the Bureaucrats in cheap veggies.  What would they do if their orange juice went up by 1000%.  There are too many places that depend on stationary engines.  We will get got, just probably last, after they work out all the kinks with every other internal combustion engine and the California car pollution regs have been inforce countrywide for several years. 

[Twinscrew]

Couldn't a complete "PARTS" network be easily established and supported right here in the forum? Blocks from supplier A, heads from supplier B, pistons from supplier C, and so on and so forth. "Kits" from cars to planes and everything in between often circumvent many of the regulations associated with assembled units. Couldn't a "kit" listeriod be marketed, to be assembled by the end user for "hobby" purposes?

[Halfnuts]

They're already available.  Check out http://www.utterpower.com/kit_engines.htm


Halfnuts

[Twinscrew]

Thanks Halfnuts.

[SCOTT]

I am willing to bet that no one on this board has ever read any text from the EPA that says the Lister type stationary diesel engine is banned.  I am willing to make that bet because the text does not exist.   If there is someone out there who has read such text please speak up, and provide a link to the EPA web site where you found the text. 


Bottom line:
There is no EPA ban on Lister type engines.

Scott

[slowspeed1953]

I am willing to bet that no one on this board has ever read any text from the EPA that says the Lister type stationary diesel engine is banned.  I am willing to make that bet because the text does not exist.   If there is someone out there who has read such text please speak up, and provide a link to the EPA web site where you found the text. 


Bottom line:
There is no EPA ban on Lister type engines.

Scott
 

[fuddyduddy]

  Here's where we should go along with the Agri-Busineses.  Do you really think the EPA will eliminate every diesel engine driven irrigation system tomorrow.  The people in California depend on these kinds of engines to keep the Bureaucrats in cheap veggies.  What would they do if their orange juice went up by 1000%.  There are too many places that depend on stationary engines.  We will get got, just probably last, after they work out all the kinks with every other internal combustion engine and the California car pollution regs have been inforce countrywide for several years. 

Hello Bitsnpieces,,
The California farmers have already had to replace their old diesel irrigation pump engines. Yup, it was the EPA,and California equivalent (Air Resources Board)  who forced them.

Scott, it is the trolls on this forum  who have stated there is a ban on "Lister type Stationary engines".   HOWEVER, when you read the regs closely, you will find that there are VERY limited opportunities for importing un-certified engines, stationary or otherwise!!

[mobile_bob]

i havent read every last blithering word of the EPA reg's but i have read enough to see
why most all of the importers bailed out of the business of importing complete engines.

even though the reg's don't explicitely name the listeroid, they do in a loose sense of the wording
rope them into the law,,, i dont know about you but i dont wanna fight out the intracacies of federal law
with uncle sams finest.

far easier to just import the parts, they clearly state no problem with that.

my take,,, your mileage will vary
bob g

[bitsnpieces1]

Hello Bitsnpieces,,
The California farmers have already had to replace their old diesel irrigation pump engines. Yup, it was the EPA,and California equivalent (Air Resources Board)  who forced them. 

 Well that's the first step down the 'banned' road.  I expected the California farmers to be the first as an 'indicator organism'.  Anyone know what the situation is for irrigation outside Ca., say in the midwest?  It seems to be still fluid here in Fl, mostly dependent on the availablility of readily available electric lines.  Here you have to donate the land, pay for the poles, pay for the wire, pay for the labor, then give it all to the power company.  After the installation for you, they can run wires anywhere they want to without any control from you. 

[listeroidsusa]

There is plenty of BS already. There IS a ban on all CI engines that do not meet Tier 1 emissions PERIOD! If you think otherwise you are just fooling yourself. Engines CAN be imported PROVIDED they meet Tier 1, otherwise it is illegal to import or operate one in the US built after 4/1/2006. Those folks who are importing "parts" engines are setting themselves up for a big fall. One of the Customs documents PLAINLY states that importing partially complete engines to circumvent the regulations makes one liable for a big 'ol fine.

From 4/1/2006 until 12/31/2006 engines CAN be imported while the regulations are in final transition for the new Tier 2 to be implemented 1/1/2007 IF they meet Tier 1. If YOU IMPORT or are the END USER it is YOUR responsibility to guarantee compliance with Tier 1 under the current law until 1/1/07 when it will transition to the manufacturers responsibility. If the importer or end user does not have current records of emissions compliance upon request from EPA of engines built after 4/1/06 the big 'ol fine applies. Got yours?? How about emissions labeling?

If it were otherwise I would not have spent the $20K it took to certify compliance of my engines (after modifications). New imports of the Lister type engines will resume shortly, after I receive my Certificate of Conformity from  EPA.

 Here are some FACTS from EPA.


"During the transitional period before the MY 2007, engines can be sold that are not emission certified. In that case, the engine owner/operator is responsible for emission compliance".

 
Have you been sold a bill of goods and been left holding the bag??? Feeling lucky?

Still think its not true? read this! Copy and paste the link below.

http://www.epa.gov/Compliance/resources/newsletters/civil/enfalert/engines.pdf

I can go on and on but I think I've made my point. If you aren't doing the importing regularly and with experience and with knowledge you are risking losing big time. The old saying applies to this thread, "Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread"

Mike

[listeroidsusa]

Here's another one you'll like. This is from the Epa documents that are required accompany the customs  documents for engines built after 4/1/06

"Anyone who distributes in commerce, sells, offers for sale, or introduces for sale an engine subject to EPA certification but not covered by a Certificate of Conformity, may be fined up to $32,500 per violation (40 CFR 1068.101(a), 89.1006, 91.1106, 92.1106, 94.1106)

[mobile_bob]

listeroidusa:

i have a question,, how are the epa going to determine if i as an end user have an engine that was built before april 06, if
it has no tags, or was assembled of parts after april 06 and has no casting numbers or tags?

if the engine must have tags, how does one tag an engine that is missing its tags, and was either built of parts or purchased prior to april 06?

the reason i am asking is

25 years ago, if you had an m1garand semi auto, it was a simple matter of purchasing the parts needed from the pages of shotgun news to reconvert
it back to a fully automatic weapon,,, although illegal to own, it was done.... it was legal to sell the individual parts as long as you didnt sell all the necessary parts there was no
way they could prove that you would have any real way of knowing what the purchaser had in mind with an individual part.
a weapon is far easier to police, than a listeroid, i would think.
god knows there are more batf officers than epa officers,, and even an idiot knows an automatic weapon by its sound.
few people would know a listeroid from a farmall,

so following the same logic,,, the parts are legal to import, and as long as you are only importing a part, you have no real way of knowing how the part is going to
be used and cannot be held liable for the use of the part.

so as long as the importer of record does not import all of the parts,, and sell them as parts that could all be purchased from the same source and assembled the the importers liability
would not be anywhere near as easy to prove as if he imported all and sold them as kits, or even as a loosely vailed scheme.

another thought,,, farm auctions when selling a large wood saw blade almost always represent them as large jagged round pieces of scrap iron,
what is keeping an importer of heads from calling them paper weights?  short blocks planter stands for the garden, and flywheels as mailbox stands?

seriously i think i could go out and find an old oil engine, and bring it back to life with some work that would be a serious polluter,, are they going after those too?
if not why not,, if it is painted up nice and has no id plate , who is to know its origins?

conversely if i assemble a listeriod after first soaking the castings in salt water, (fake patina) and cover it with tar and set it on fire, so it looks 50 years old, should it not
probably get past the typical inspector?
just curious

bob g

[listeroidsusa]

Like you say, an individual could probably get away with doing a parts engine, but how do you explain what the container load of headless engines is for? It would certainly raise a red flag. Its a chance I don't care to take, especially now that I've done my emissions testing and can import legally. Doing otherwise and hoping not to get caught is like playing russian roulette, and I couldn't stand even one of those fines.

[fuddyduddy]

Well Mike,
That really isn't quite so. 

For example, a V-12, 597 CC CI engine is not subject AT ALL to the EPA regs.

AND, acording to 40 CFR 87.1)., a CI engine installed in an aircraft, dirigible, etc, is not subject  to ANY EPA regs.

AND, of course,  "Except that 60.13 only applies to stationary ICE with a displacement equal to or greater than 30 liters  per  cylinder".  (Applicability of General Provisions to Sub Part IIII)  PRINTED Tuesday, July 11, 2006

 "Note that certain requirements and prohibitions apply to engines built on or after January 1, 2006 if they are installed in stationary applications".

PLEASE NOTE THAT THERE ARE OTHER EXCEPTIONS, AND I WILL NOT STATE THEM ALL. 

Suffice it to say that if you wish to import CI, ICE, from Asia or elsewhere you should obtain certification.

[SCOTT]

Mike

In order to understand the regulations you must start at the beginning:

1.�  Define the function of Lister type engine
2.�  Determine the engines class according to EPA definition
3.�  What regulations apply to Lister type engines?


You have made a good case that there is an EPA ban on all CI engines that do not meet their respective tier levels.�  What you have done is a very good job at explaining the regulations and penalties for non compliance as related to NONRAOD engines.�  The link you provided talks about Nonroad engines.

http://www.epa.gov/Compliance/resources/newsletters/civil/enfalert/engines.pdf


Mike, the problem is that you have assigned Lister type engines the classification of nonroad engines.�  Now one may think of course they are non road, they are not used in a vehicle of any kind.�  While this makes perfect logical sense this is not how the EPA views the situation.�  Remember the only opinion that matters is that of the EPA.

The EPA defines a nonroad engine as:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=a9488629fb2412b3f05dad2bc253dd63&rgn=div8&view=text&node=40:20.0.1.1.3.1.1.2&idno=40� 

Nonroad engine means:
(1) Except as discussed in paragraph (2) of this definition, a nonroad engine is any internal combustion engine:
(i) In or on a piece of equipment that is self-propelled or serves a dual purpose by both propelling itself and performing another function (such as garden tractors, off-highway mobile cranes and bulldozers); or
(ii) In or on a piece of equipment that is intended to be propelled while performing its function (such as lawnmowers and string trimmers); or
(iii) That, by itself or in or on a piece of equipment, is portable or transportable, meaning designed to be and capable of being carried or moved from one location to another. Indicia of transportability include, but are not limited to, wheels, skids, carrying handles, dolly, trailer, or platform.
(2) An internal combustion engine is not a nonroad engine if:
(i) the engine is used to propel a motor vehicle or a vehicle used solely for competition, or is subject to standards promulgated under section 202 of the Act; or
(ii) the engine is regulated by a federal New Source Performance Standard promulgated under section 111 of the Act; or
(iii) the engine otherwise included in paragraph (1)(iii) of this definition remains or will remain at a location for more than 12 consecutive months or a shorter period of time for an engine located at a seasonal source. A location is any single site at a building, structure, facility, or installation. Any engine (or engines) that replaces an engine at a location and that is intended to perform the same or similar function as the engine replaced will be included in calculating the consecutive time period. An engine located at a seasonal source is an engine that remains at a seasonal source during the full annual operating period of the seasonal source. A seasonal source is a stationary source that remains in a single location on a permanent basis (i.e., at least two years) and that operates at that single location approximately three months (or more) each year. This paragraph does not apply to an engine after the engine is removed from the location.

Lister type engines are clearly not a member of the NONROAD class; therefore regulations for nonroad engines do not apply.� 
Lister type engines are a member of the stationary engine class.�  This is a very important distinction as stationary engines are subject to a completely different set of regulations.� 
The distinction is laid out here by the EPA:
http://www.epa.gov/nonroad/2002/420f02034.pdf

Mike I am sorry you spent $20k on equipment you do not need.�  I have no doubt that you will soon have an engine that will meet tier 1 standard, but it is not REQUIRED to do so.� 

When my load of lister type engines came in last month all the proper forms were files and I have additional originals in a safe deposit box (I must retain them for 5 years per the regulations)

Quote:
"Have you been sold a bill of goods and been left holding the bag??? Feeling lucky?”

I certainly do not feel I have been sold a bill of goods and I do not feel I am holding the bag.  I don’t feel lucky, I feel informed.

I hope this will finally put a rest to the myth that the Lister type engines can not be legally imported into the USA.

Best Regards
Scott