Author Topic: WI  (Read 7476 times)

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2018, 05:56:53 PM »
All these fuel diaphram pumps are vacuum pulse driven. You'd have to change the design to run off pressure- the spring would have to be on the opposite side of the diaphram, where presently there are check valves, and the diaphram material would have to be stiffer to allow higher head. 

Didn't sleep much last night so I'm not sure how much progress I can make today.
 

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2018, 12:05:18 AM »
I got it working and the flow rate set.  I ended up removing the flow restriction at the intake manifold, back to 3/16 ID brass tube as shown before in this thread.  With 1/16 inch ID at the intake manifold, I was only getting 1 ml/minute.  I kept removing the sleeved tubing one at a time until they were all gone.  My tiny pneumatic solenoid valve is pretty restrictive for water, cuts the flow in half at any giving water level height, but it's free so I'll use it for now.  The long 1/4 OD (RO type) tubing did restrict flow also compared to my prior test with a short loop of larger ID tubing. For a larger than 20 ml/min flow, I'd suggest larger tubing.

I now have water level marks for about 10 and 20 ml/minute flow rates; the float arm is adjustable and I just change that for the desired flow rate.  Photos when it cools down.  It was tedious to keep fiddling and using a 60 ml syringe body for the water supply to see water consumption- timing 2ml drop. 

I'd like to add an inline filter to catch any crud in the water- any suggestions for a small inline fuel filter that won't clog when used for water and water/methanol?







EdDee

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Re: WI
« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2018, 01:32:03 PM »
Hi Bruce,

In reply to a previous question, it IS a CS style roid, 12Hp at 1000rpm, now running at 9-10hp at 750rpm...

The inlet manifold is 1 1/2" or so galv pipe, leading to a large truck type air cleaner with little input restriction... 4.5" of water is what it pulls on the pipe, but, my error, that is to the bottom of the float bowl, the water level is about 2" above the bottom, so around 2.5" actual pull.... my apologies!

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2018, 03:20:03 PM »
Thanks, Ed.  That's consistent with my measurements given your increased RPM. You were right on the mark with adjusting water level to achieve the desired flow rate, thank you.

I'm not thrilled with the float valve I'm using.  Instead of a sharp cutoff I get dribbling, then dripping, with half an inch of rise in water level beyond dribbling to a full shut off.  About 3/4" difference total between initial and later running water level.  That's more variation than I want as it represents a doubling in flow rate.  Not a show stopper, but annoying.  I'm going look into it further.  For now I'll adjust so it starts at 25 ml/min and tapers down to 15.












EdDee

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Re: WI
« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2018, 05:10:12 PM »
Hey Bruce...

Dont stress re the dribble... thats a progressive thing with the float valve scenario...

Run it, see where it averages and set level accordingly....

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2018, 05:32:25 PM »
Thanks Ed.  I am going to add an overflow pipe to the float tank- so that float valve failure doesn't flood the floor and intake manifold. 

It's right on the wall, so a 1/2" tube through the wall is a snap.

I've written to tech support at CDI- they have bought up all the float valve companies in the US so hopefully can make a good suggestion as to what might work best for my low pressure feed, low flow rate application. 

The consolidation of small companies in the US is alarming.  I've seen this in electronics as well-  6 good filter companies all bought out by the same company, product lines slashed, prices more than doubled with lead times of 4 months, no stocking of the formerly stocked products.  The purchasing company is awful, no decent engineers, no good tech support, a bunch of bullshit artists.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 05:38:42 PM by BruceM »

dieselspanner

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Re: WI
« Reply #66 on: June 22, 2018, 05:56:02 PM »
Another idea occurred whilst plodding around the lanes on me old tractor this afternoon..........

Most of you guys are running 'Roids, presumably with taper roller bearings and no oil pump. how's about mounting a small piston pump to drive the WI in the same spot?

Given how little power it would take running one off the exhuast or inlet cam follower might be a goer too..........

Cheers
Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2018, 11:15:39 PM »
Here's my gravity fed, float valve/tank - intake manifold vacuum water injection setup.  My next step is a software update for 10 minute delay after running to allow for warm up, and turning it off whenever when no-load or shutdown condition is detected. I also have to add a  Mosfet to my interface board  for the solenoid valve control, and run wire to and properly mount the solenoid valve.
 
https://youtu.be/Y-91-CblrMk
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 11:24:12 PM by BruceM »

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #68 on: June 23, 2018, 11:36:19 PM »
A question for our more experienced WI users:

My Listeroid 6/1 engine is automatically shut down when running with no load for more than 10 minutes. Would it be a better or worse to do WI during no load time.  Either way is just as easy.  I note that at 20 ml/min WI there is no noticeable change in running at cold idle in 9OF temperatures. 

The next is- should I wait for a 10 minute warm up (winter AM starts at 15F) or just turn on the water after starting.  Again, either is just as easy, the question is what's best.  Normal run times are about 1-1.5 hrs, with occasional 3-4 hour runs (woodworking or pneumatic string trimmer). 




glort

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Re: WI
« Reply #69 on: June 24, 2018, 12:20:23 AM »

If you are injecting an amount that makes no difference to the engine when it is unladen, then it is not worse.  I would not say it's as good as injecting while the thing is loaded, it's simply not going to hurt anything.
I have done lots of engines on vehicles where I just held the revs you and poured water down the intake. It will clean them out and certainly does not hurt them even though they aren't under load.
It won't so anything detrimental if it's still watering at idle as long as the injection rate is low enough not to make it stutter which it is way below.


With the warm up, I don't believe injecting cold is a bad thing although I just try to stay off the water till the engine does have a bit of heat.
The main thing I think of is water getting past the rings and into the sump where the oil is not hot enough to evaporate it.  With the amount of water you are injecting, I would say the risk of that in not worth worrying about in the slightest.

The water will cool the engine so it's probably better practice to wait till it does have a bit of heat in it.

I think the water would phase change under the compression and heat of combustion just the same, It might just try to re condense in the ports or exhaust of a cold engine though.
At the end of the day, you don't really need to inject cold. If you are going to be watering the beast all the rest of the time, not like the first 10 Min will make any difference.

Myself, I'd defer it till the engine had some heat because I think that would be on the safer side and certainly won't do any harm.

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #70 on: June 24, 2018, 02:17:48 AM »
Thanks, Glort.  I'll wait for 10 minutes before turning on WI, and will only turn it off just before shut down.


BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #71 on: June 24, 2018, 04:44:18 PM »
One more question:
My well water is moderately hard (magnesium, calcium) but very good quality drinking water. Is that going to be acceptable for WI? 

glort

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Re: WI
« Reply #72 on: June 25, 2018, 12:46:03 AM »

Never had to worry about that myself but the question I'd ask is does it leave behind residue when it's evaporated?

I took my Harley to the Country for my Cousins Wedding years ago. Washed it when I got there and before I could dry it off, had more white blotches on it from the bore water than when I started. I think that water was very hard. you could scratch off the residue into a powder.
Lucky I had also taken a drum of water from home with me in case the car over heated so I washed it again, rinsed with the drum water and it was fine.

If the bore water is like this and leaves residue I'd keep a very close eye on it.  WMO and veg will leave residue when they are burned but we can get away with it. I assume the ash is exhausted. How anything else would go I don't know.  I don't think the minerals would burn off so well and may accumulate.
I think it would really depend on the evap test. If an amount of water evaporation leaves the minerals behind, that may require caution.  If not, then I'd say it's fine.

Do you have rain water tanks? If so, I'd probably defer to that if the bore water is high in minerals. 

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #73 on: June 25, 2018, 01:11:33 AM »
Thanks, Glort.

There is a white deposit in the teakettle after some months- it's moderately hard water.  I will probably run it for a while then pull the head and check things out visually. If the water flashes to steam I'm hopeful the minerals will be blown out with the exhaust.

Collecting rain water isn't very satisfying here.  We used to get 15 inches a year but now it's less. The bulk is in August thunderstorms (deluge).  We can go 6 months without measurable rain. I do have gutters so it's possible...but bugs are drawn to water like crazy here since it's so damn dry.  Single digit humidity and around 95F with winds all the last month. 

I'm just debugging the software update now- it didn't turn on the WI solenoid as it should have in 10 minutes with a load.  No signal at the processor pin so clearly a software goof. Shoot the software guy.






glort

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Re: WI
« Reply #74 on: June 25, 2018, 01:48:13 AM »


  I will probably run it for a while then pull the head and check things out visually. 

That would be Ideal. This is one of those questions where you need a definitive not a safe answer but there are a lot of variable and probably little knowledge on it. All the WI makers say use distilled water but they also say you need a 5000PSI pump to turn the water into vapor before you can inject it which is one of many of their self interested myths.

If you can check whats happening after a while you will know for sure one way or the other.


Quote
Collecting rain water isn't very satisfying here.  We used to get 15 inches a year but now it's less. The bulk is in August thunderstorms (deluge).  We can go 6 months without measurable rain.

Much like this year has been here. 3 years ago the place was nearly washed away literally. My neighbour was saying how there were several occasions where they couldn't get to town any way for 3 days or more at a time. Water would recede, go in and get supplies then there would be another downpour and the town was cut off again. The town itself wasn't in a good way either. Very hard to believe now. It's SO dry and barren around the place.

We are supposed to get over 800mm year. had a few almost decent showers the last month but we are still under 200mm for the financial year.
My neighbour isn't fooled. He's bee doing quite a bit of drainage work around his home. He keeps saying when it comes, it's going to come in torrents.
Past history would support that Idea as would his 13 years in the area.

I have 10K litres of water storage and am putting in more. Just using some IBC tanks in out of the way places near the side of the house where there are convenient down pipes. I have put in another 2000 so far and another 2000 to hook up. Sounds a lot but it does not go far.

Do you get fog where you are Bruce?
I have seen a couple of YT vids where these do gooder groups set up shade cloth for people who live in certain areas where it's dry as but they get fog. The fog blows through the nets, condenses and drips into troughs that take it to tanks.  Absoloutley brilliant. Another of these things that has transformed an area from people scratching to survive to virtual wealth. These people can now plant crops and sell the water they now have loads of to other surrounding towns.

There is not enough fog here to do anything with but if I could figure out how to harvest the frost we have been getting, maybe I could top up my tanks!  :0)

One thing that may work for you in producing soft water would be a Solar still. If you could put the bore water in one container and catch the distilled water in another, that may be a way you could refine the water you have at virtually no cost.  You can get a good amount of water out of those things especially when you have water to put in there to start.