Author Topic: WI  (Read 9755 times)

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2018, 09:02:14 PM »
Thanks for the help with the flow rate, Glort.  I can carry 3 gallons (11 liters) of water in a 5 gallon pail with lid per 8 hr oiling service.  In winter I'll add methanol to avoid freezing.  That would allow up to 23 ml/minute water injection.  I can use a 5 gallon pail with lid for a cheap gravity feed storage vessel.  The float valve tank can be as small as will fit the $9 float valve for 1/4 OD plastic tube supply I found on Amazon. 

Air to pump water via bubbles is something I have read about.  One deep well pumping company sold windmills with an air compressor attached to the blades. It that pumped deep water wells via rising air bubbles for stock tanks...no moving parts in the deep well.

I may play around a little with your bubble idea.  A small overflowing tray to be the constant water level tank inside a larger storage tank, with water pumped to the tray via air bubbles or micro water pump... not a bad idea since it eliminates the float valve.  Mostly I need to scope out the limited space in my engine room to see what will fit and will make filling the water tank easy.




mike90045

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Re: WI
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2018, 01:27:32 AM »
What's used in windshield washer antifreeze - is it methanol ?  Besides the color dye, anything else in it?

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2018, 02:05:50 AM »
I suspect some detergent and ammonia plus the dye and methanol.  I'm not sure I'd want to use that for water injection.  I have 5 gallons of methanol I bought at the auto race track that I can use up.

I did find a cheap up to 100ml/minute volume dosing pump that draws only 80ma of 12v and could work for someone that wants to do a direct pumped WI on a CS or other small engine.  For most if driving from a small switching 12V supply off the generator mains, that should suffice for drawing up from a covered bucket. You could even get fancy and switch the AC supply through a snap disk epoxied to the head.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01B4YUOTC/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A34ANJ4QLY2ZT&psc=1

I'm still undecided. For gravity flow I did find decent small float valve for 1/4 OD plastic line.

https://www.amazon.com/Kerick-Valve-MA252-Float-Adjustable/dp/B0077RAX4W/ref=sr_1_3?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1528678654&sr=1-3&keywords=mini+float+valve+1%2F4


BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2018, 04:08:17 PM »
After thinking and sleeping on it, I'm going with Glort's suggested pumped WI. I've ordered the cheap dosing pump listed above.

I do like things as simple as possible, and I find gravity quite reliable and cheap,  but in this case the pump draws less power than a solenoid valve, and I can just sit a 5 gallon bucket with tubing through the lid in the corner and feed the dosing pump with that.  I'll add some new Basic code to my existing PICaxe 40x2 engine controller so that it waits 10 minutes after load is detected before turning on the pump; so no new head temperature sensor required.  Likewise, stopping pumping with no load and on any condition caused shutdown is another couple lines of basic since the sensor inputs and associated code are already there.

These peristalsis type pumps can run dry with no problems and are self priming, so no float switch is required to stop a run dry situation. I'll can adjust flow rate via voltage dropping resistor and/or duty cycle as well as flow restriction. Voltage reduction is ideal since current will also be reduced and the motor will last longer.  I'll test the pump as soon as I get it; perhaps Thursday.




BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2018, 11:33:28 PM »
Glad you've had some experience with this type of pump.  I ordered some slightly smaller silicone tubing to use with it; that should reduce flow rate and roller pressure as well; on similar pumps  flow rates are specified for several different sizes of tubing which gave me that idea. 

I should get the pump late Wednesday.


BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2018, 02:52:00 AM »
I had to search widely to find a pneumatic diaphram pump with the right diaphram material for handling biodiesel. The stuff destroyed my hand crank barrel pump and my air drill powered vane pump in just a few days.

The China made motorized ball valves have changed my automation world; I can get for under $50. what used to cost $350 to $500. The ones with the super cap that close on power off, thus acting like a super low power solenoid valve are especially handy.   

But by far the best thing China has done for me is Zennioptical.  I have MS related vision problems- difficulty moving eyes and focussing which resulted in ferocious headaches shortly after putting my glasses on in the morning.  By experimenting with under-correction to various degrees, and finding just the right correction for various tasks and distances, I do WAY better.  This took buying a trial lens set, trial frame set and owning a lot of glasses.  By sticking to under $10 bargain frames including RX lenses, this was possible.  It also made me realize that the US opticians had been screwing me my whole life.  The Zenni bargain frames and lenses are better quality, by far, than the $350 glasses I had been getting.






BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2018, 11:37:26 PM »
Got the cheap peristalsis pump and tested it.  It's junk.  Wouldn't pump at all as delivered, the bare motor shaft is friction drive on the nylon rollers- a bit of oil on the shaft meant it was just slipping and not pumping. Only the tubing pressure on the rollers pressing against the motor shaft?? Not an reliable design for remote use.  I cleaned it and limbered up the tubing and then it worked- but it draws 250ma of 12V, not 80ma.  Specifications from China are rarely meaningful.  At 6V it still draws 230 ma but barely moves.  The motor is overloaded for this application and draws way more current than needed for the task.  It is certainly never going to last the 6000 hours service life specified.

I've ordered a different pump, $15, with alleged gear drive, 6V, 30ma. 





« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 02:59:34 AM by BruceM »

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2018, 03:27:35 AM »
I could live with the 250ma, but the pump I got is just too cheesy in design.  The motor is over loaded, irregular in sound, warm. I don't see it lasting the rated 6000 hours.  It did put out about 100 ml/minute at nearly no lift as specified.

A low pressure drive of a water vessel is a good idea, as is using a small bubbling of compressed air to pump water up via tubing into the intake manifold, but I'm still hoping for an acceptable quality electric pump.  Otherwise, I'll reconsider.  I'll get the new pump on Friday.

Compressed air is a bit annoying at times- things like regulators, pilot valves, and check valves all leak and that is "normal".  For example a low pressure regulator will occasionally not seat well and slowly leak a lot of air over half a day.  No matter the brand. I do have a variable amount of leakage the entire time the Listeroid is running, since the controller needs air for shut down control and control of the air compressor.  The pilot valve for the compressor leaks a little (again, it varies) and the air compressor unloaders which must be pressurized if the air compressor is belted but not being used. 

veggie

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Re: WI
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2018, 11:55:32 PM »
BruceM

A bit late to this thread. I just saw your video. (Nice system by the way  ;)  )
Have you considered these small 12 volt pumps to push the water into your misting nozzle?
They are typically used for small fertilizer sprayers.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-12V-130PSI-6L-Min-Water-High-Pressure-Diaphragm-70W-Self-Priming-Pump/112845409190?epid=2171526613&hash=item1a461c4ba6:g:YW4AAOSwGvZamQmh

A lot of people use them for water injection here in the great white north.
No gravity required and they can be activated by manual switch for temporary dosing,  a timer, a temp switch, or whatever you like.
Control flow with a needle valve in the discharge line.

Veggie
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- Kubota Z482 - 4kw
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

veggie

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Re: WI
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2018, 12:13:17 AM »
....aslo, if you want to get really nerdy you can add a 12 vdc pulse width modulator for flow/speed control.
I use one of these pumps to push warm thin WVO through my 5 mic filters and I added this little unit to control the flow rate.
Just dial the speed to the flow that you want. Very inexpensive.
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/12V-24V-48V-2000W-MAX-10-50V-40A-DC-Motor-Speed-Control-PWM-HHO-RC-Controller/192229829982?hash=item2cc1ca6d5e:g:6TIAAOSwCkZZUgJr

Veggie

« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 12:16:46 AM by veggie »
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- Kubota Z482 - 4kw
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2018, 12:46:22 AM »
Thanks, Vege.  That's WAY more pump and power use than needed for my desired trickle of 20 ml/minute.  When doing only air compressing, I have 12V from battery, charging via 40W PV.  So realistically 2.5 amps and perhaps 1 amp on a cloudy day, and running off battery when dark. Right now, my run time current draw it tiny, perhaps 40ma total. 

I got the Yosoo brand peristalsis pump today.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00VHYO9F0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The rollers ARE gear driven, it works fine without fussing with the tubing, but it draws 250 ma at 6V.  Not terrible but a far cry from the listing of 30ma.  They are lugging the motor pretty badly with an inadequate gear ratio. Somewhat disappointing.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00VHYO9F0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I spent the afternoon updating my Picaxe engine controller software for the new 40x2 part, which is really a PIC 8 bit 18F MCU.  It allows software reassignment of all input/output pins so now I've got loads of spares.  The new parts are upwardly pin compatible, just some minor software mods needed. 

I do appreciate the child- oriented simplicity of the Picaxe as I become more impaired; never any mysterious serial programming problems, dirt cheap, great tech support.  I've used the Arduino where I needed interrupts, and time critical real time bit banging and RMS AC voltage calculations for my inverter, but alas, their programmers are error prone and flaky, there were serious bugs in their math library and undocumented features in the compiler relative to interrupt routines setting flags.  Basic problems that reminded me why products cobbled together with Open Source software from multiple sources are not my preference when I have serious work to do.  I'll also add that for 5V operation, the PIC 18F series uses roughly half the power of the comparable AVR parts, even when adjusting clock for equivalent MIPS. 









BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2018, 06:17:44 AM »
I did some fiddling with the Yasoo pump.  It must be the type you used, Glort, as you can oil it and it does run a bit smoother.  The other roller-friction on the bare motor shaft type just spins the motor shaft without moving the rollers if you oil it. 

It can't be slowed down by voltage much- won't start or run below 5V...and still has way more flow than needed for my 6/1.  I tried some smaller thin wall silicone tubing but it didn't work at all.  Ends up the wall thickness is critical so that the roller closes the tube completely.  Another slightly smaller tube with the wall a bit thicker was too thick and would stalled pump.  The tubing when squeezed in the space between the rollers and the cavity wall has to be JUST right.

I'm in no hurry so will look some more.  What I want is 20 ml/min at 36 inches of head. Car washer pumps are gross overkill for a Listeroid WI, I think.  I have an old MB one from my parts car I can try on reduced voltage to see how it goes.

I did experiment with compressed air bubble lift.  Alas, it requires a substantial depth of water to work so isn't practical for a bucket lift.

Still pondering the best solution for my needs.





dieselspanner

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Re: WI
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2018, 08:54:20 AM »
Back in the day I had a VW camper which had the screen washers driven by compressed air from the spare tyre, so....

How about a system using a tyre as the air reservoir (the pressure won't vary much over 10 or 15 litres of dosing), using a needle valve to control the flow with the fuel rack opening and closing a valve?

Engine stopped, no flow, fuel rack open, off she goes. Should you be worried about the motor stalling with the rack wide open, mount the inlet as a drip over a 'sump' with a drain fitted with a valve held closed by the vacuum in the inlet manifold. As Glort said, worst that can happen is you run out of air or water.

Simple, cheap, no electrics at all and there's probably enough bits in the 'it'll come in handy pile' to knock up a test rig for free.

Cheers Stef

Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2018, 04:42:50 PM »
I had the same idea about a funnel; I may play with it today.  There is an endless low pressure air source available without sipping on my 500 gallon compressed air tank... that's the exhaust.

RC model airplane folks use the exhaust pulses tapped from the muffler to run a diaphram pump for pumping small amounts of smoke fluid into the preheat/muffler.  A servo actuated smoker valve controls the output flow.

Another pump off of crankcase pressurize pumps fuel in aerobatic models to insure uniform fuel feed. Some use the simpler system of pressurizing the fuel tank via muffler tap.  They also had tiny check valves, as I remembered.

Alas, the RC diaphram pump is for very high rpm engines, it wouldn't be suitable for WI on on the CS engine. 

Pressurizing the water storage tank just enough to allow the intake vacuum to finish the job is one way to go.  A 3-5 gallon vessel that can handle 1.2 psi yet be cheap and easily filled is a tough nut.

The CS exhaust pressure is likely more than sufficient to pressurize this tank.

Pity the all plastic peristalsis pumps aren't readily modified.  With a tiny geared down motor they would be sweet.

Pulsed 12V to the 6V pump would preserve some torque, though at the price of motor heating.  Problem is all the available pumps I can find so far are 10-1000x the needed flow; too far to adjust by PWM, really.

I still have gravity. Even when I get to where can't lift a 3 gallon bucket I could always feed the supply tank with a little submersible pump from a bucket on the floor. 

Our first rain in months today. A good day to look at giant scale RC gadgets for fuel/smoke pumping to see if anything might be suitable.






BruceM

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Re: WI
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2018, 06:50:01 PM »
Sweet little exhaust-diaphram fuel pump, Glort!
No penalty for flow restriction on these, so it should do the 20 ml/minute rate.  Water/meth should be no trouble either.