Puppeteer

Author Topic: oil burners  (Read 7350 times)

mikenash

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 955
    • View Profile
oil burners
« on: June 07, 2018, 09:11:01 AM »
Hi guys

We talked about this stove and related ones that other had built a while back

It's midwinter now and my friend and I just spent most of a week "camping" up at my workshop where the stove is

It was kinda zero degrees Centigrade overnight (frosty mornings) so we has the stove burning hard quite a lot.  My next job is to build it a flue damper as it's effectively an open fire in a heavy steel box right now and a chunk of heat goes up the chimney; plus I suspect it burns more wood than it needs to with an open flue.  I'm still gaining experience with the air flows around the beast

The wetback thermosiphon works as expected and it generates lots of hot water and the 32mm copper pipes are perfect for drying towels on.  I have been running hot water to waste just  to get rid of it and Lou has instructed me I have to take one shower out and fit a bath instead so she can exploit all the free hot water

It cooks well on the top too; and does that very satisfying thing where the kettle sits at a strategic spot that keeps it about two degrees below boiling and the moment you move it onto the hot area it boils instantly - I love those simple but good things

But I raise this topic again as I have been reading up on and watching videos about drip-feed waste-oil burners, as, in my industry I get hundreds of litres of very clean "heavy" "waste" oil - too heavy to use on any engine not designed for Bunker Oil but quite possibly useable in a drip-feed burner - especially with a pre-heat perhaps - and those burner units look like the sort of thing a resourceful chap could build/adapt inside the empty firebox space of my woodstove . . .

I wonder if anyone out there has played with them?

I want a no-moving-parts, no fan/burner model so that it's idiot-proof, safe and low-tech

I would be interested in any thoughts

Cheers

LowGear

  • Casey
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2130
  • What? My diesel had fries for lunch?
    • View Profile
Re: oil burners
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2018, 01:27:47 PM »
Sounds rather unhealthy to me. 
NPR Tipper/Dump Truck
Kubota BX 2230
Witte BD Generator
SunnyBoy 6000 + SolarWorld 245

EdDee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 773
    • View Profile
Re: oil burners
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2018, 01:40:08 PM »
Hey Glort.....

Lets agree to disagree..... I have a very simple little plan that I am going to use to make a drip burner with....

Lets just say its still in the "concept" stage at the moment, but soon will be a reality..... (ie the individual things are tested)...

Basically....

Dome shaped enclosure to act as the burner outer (required vent holes around the bottom to regulate air flow)

Burner "spoon" on a "balance" hinge, going through a vertical slot in the side of the outer (with very tiny lift spring or adjustable fulcrum)...

A copper pipe set to drip oil into the spoon, coming from a tiny push activated valve....

A container and pipe to feed oil to the valve.....

Put oil in spoon and light it....
Oil burns
Spoon gets lighter
Spoon lifts
valve opens slightly
spoon "fills"
Spoon falls
valve closes
oil burns

Rinse, wash, repeat!

Ok, so its got 2 moving parts....but its still very simple!

Cheers
Ed
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 01:41:57 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

LowGear

  • Casey
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2130
  • What? My diesel had fries for lunch?
    • View Profile
Re: oil burners
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2018, 02:01:05 PM »
I didn't quite  see the automatic shut-off for when it gets too hot?  I remember your work from the previous thread and know you can build anything you visualize.

The stove oil fired burner I grew up with and the scares I carried from the floor grate directly above it relied on a carburetor.  It was external to the heat exchanger (barrel).  High was unsafe.  It had no too high safety feature and was always turned off at bed time unless it was bitterly cold but my dad would check it a couple of times during the night.  The old "normal".
NPR Tipper/Dump Truck
Kubota BX 2230
Witte BD Generator
SunnyBoy 6000 + SolarWorld 245

EdDee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 773
    • View Profile
Re: oil burners
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2018, 04:06:48 PM »
Hi Casey/Glort...

High temps can be a problem, but I dont forsee it in a naturally draughted setup with minimal controlled combustion taking place, forced air and injectors etc can and will run way hotter than planned for the slightest excuse they are presented with.

As Glort has confirmed on many a time, and I will 100% agree, big heat is easy to make, small heat is a right PITA ... So, onto the carbon problem..... It isn't.... when it carbons up, remove the spoon, knock out the cake, and go again... Sure, a bit of playing around is going to be needed, maybe it wont run long term on crud and need frequent cleaning, but hey, if you can get something safe and easy.... Safe enough that you can start it up before bedtime and KNOW that you are not risking your household until it carbons up and shuts down....that's a win!!

As soon as I am finished with the blow gennie project, I will see if I can get usable data for this type of burner onto the forum....

Keep it warm!!

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
    • View Profile
Re: oil burners
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2018, 05:07:24 PM »
I have a former language professor friend with some serious disabilites including COPD who moved to this general area to have clean air.  She's an amazing lady- grows her own food, has done of a lot of the building and maintenance around her place- a real doer and not a whiner. She's barely managing on her own the last few years. Alas, she has a few neighbors doing waste motor oil drip in their woodstoves for heating. Sets her back very badly every winter. Despite the 20 acre minimum lot size and separation, when I have gone to visit there is a strong pong of poorly burned motor oil in the surrounding area on cold mornings; gave me a nasty headache and depression.  Seems to settle in like fog in the cool still air and it's impossible to locate the specific sources.  She has neither the health nor money to move now.   

I'm suggesting we should all think about those neighbors who may be ill, elderly and small kids who may be struggling. Please.


EdDee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 773
    • View Profile
Re: oil burners
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2018, 08:40:02 PM »
Hi Bruce,

Agree with you wholeheartedly..... But, in defense, I will also add that a wood stove  fueled with wet wood is just as repulsive.... That's a problem we experience around this neck of the world...

ANY combustion that is not manged correctly will give similar  problems, whether it be plain carbon based or hydrocarbon based... Just as I am concerned with any of my diesels "rolling coal" others seem just as unconcerned to go ahead and blow out billows of clouds of semi unburnt yecchhh....

The problem with waste oil burners are twofold - contaminated  oil containing water and metal/oxides in solution and temperatures that are too low to allow for decent combustion... The first problem of contaminants generally causes the second problem to surface, often, well generally, people assume that adding more fuel  will solve the problem... it generally doesn't... The solutions are numerous, but each is individual to the root cause, often varying from one batch of waste oil to the next, something that the layman doesn't quite realize... Waste oils are not all alike, as we all pretty much know from our past forays....

In fact, I got caught out this evening by becoming a  little too assuming with my waste oil processing... What happened was the fueling of the burner from a 'rogue' 25L drum that somehow got mixed up in a batch of 'good' burner fuel... The 'rogue' was almost identical in smell, viscosity and appearance when i stocked the fuel tank. The burner started carboning up, running rough, and dripping oil as soon as I started introducing heated oil to the cold oil feed line... It turned out that the moisture content of the fuel was causing the water portion to boil in the line from the heat of the return oil from the other part of the process I was testing... Net result: Either run on cold fuel, or hot fuel, but don't blend... Oh, and, most importantly, up the air pressure to the burner from about 3 bar to 6 bar or more to get a clean burn.... Note: A Clean Burn!

The long and the short of it was that the average 'Smokey Joe' probably wouldn't have given two hoots and simply just carried on running as it was...

I think it all boils down to a lack of concern for your next door neighbor, as long as the wind is blowing away from you, its someone else's problem.... not good in my books, for sure!!

Anyways...enough of my ranting!

I will find a clean way of converting this gunk to heat in a 'normally aspirated' burner!

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

mikenash

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 955
    • View Profile
Re: oil burners
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2018, 11:14:59 PM »

Thanks, Guys

There is a fascinating selection of issues and answers and viewpoints here as always – especially yours re neighbours and health and personal responsibility, Bruce – and thanks for that

Observations that several folks such as Glort or Ed Dee have made around the technical things that can go wrong or, worse the potential for “runaways” aren’t really concerns for me.   If I build something it will just be “drip feed”

I have had first-hand experience of diesel runaways – and never want to experience any others

What got me thinking is the presence in my workshop every year of twenty-odd 200-litre drums of “dirty” oil changed out of low-speed agricultural gearboxes which we service annually or biennially

Visually, 90% looks as clean as the oil with which we replace it

There are no combustion by-products as there is no combustion.   There is no heat in these units as they run at around one half a rev per minute.   Sometimes there is a small amount of water from condensation, but the air-gap in the top of the gearboxes is only maybe 2% of the volume (low-speed and no foaming) and there are condensation traps fitted & serviced

What the oil does, is it deals with torque & friction – big, slow, agricultural loads – so the by-product we do get in the oil is small amounts of very fine particles of steel – or larger chunks if the big gear loses “teeth”.   While these particles/teeth will suspend for a while, my observation is that they just sediment out; as I see drums with a “sludge” at the bottom

It seemed to me that it might not need much more than some “sitting” and a draining process that left the bottom 10% of the oil in the drum, to give a clean-ish and consistent-ish product

(Of course it may be that high-load gearbox oils will have a bunch of environmentally-unfriendly additives that will need considering)

It also seemed to my amateurish and un-informed self that if I had a “consistent” product then, once the burner was properly “tuned” (the right number of air-holes in right places) then it might perform consistently?

I watched two videos from blokes who had successful-looking burners, that had been through several fine-tuning iterations, and which didn’t seem to give out any visible smoke at all.   So maybe “clean-ish” is do-able too?

I wouldn’t consider leaving something like that burning unattended in my workshop for any length of time

As a country-dwelling person in a building I have built myself, with plumbing, heating and energy systems also all self-built, I’m OK about taking personal responsibility for the safe-operation of things.   ie – not burning the goddamn workshop down

Please excuse a Glort-length response here.   I appreciate the various inputs and thought I’d deal with a few of them at once

Check out this guy if you like.  He struck me as someone who had put serious time and effort into solving some of the annoying aspects of living with a simple drip-type waste-oil burner

https://www.slideshare.net/QZ2/e2g30

Also - if you see the image attached:  This is the sort of unit I had in mind - made out of welded heavy-wall steel with holes drilled in it etc etc

Cheers, Mike

38ac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2327
    • View Profile
Re: oil burners
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2018, 12:38:22 PM »
"I want a no-moving-parts, no fan/burner model so that it's idiot-proof, safe and low-tech"

I agree with Glort,  because you have included idoit proof, safe and low tech to your requirements it doesn't exist, your searching for rocking horse droppings. 

I played with drip feed waste oil heat for 20 years. Now I admit to not being the most creative or am I at top of the heap for intelligence but after all those years and a dozen tries, some of my own invention, others were copies of other's "superior" design  I gave up and bought a Lannair waste oil furnace and for three seasons now it has done everything right with no fuss other than the mandatory ash cleanings that any waste oil burning devise will have. Ya it cost some money,, but so does screwing with the drip feed when paying work is sitting unattended on the bench. I can also leave it on all the time without fear of burning the shop down or walking in to a pool of oil on the floor.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 03:41:36 PM by 38ac »
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

38ac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2327
    • View Profile
Re: oil burners
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2018, 03:40:59 PM »

The true " drip" design is flawed in many ways.

The gravity fed Drip idea in my mind is a bit farcical really.  The drip rate Diminishes as the fuel level drops. The feed rate increases as the oil warms up.  Controlling the feed is touchy with a normal gate or ball valve, it's prone to blocking with a needle valve.  That's just a couple of things. You can get round the level thing but time you do that, may just as well pump the oil so you get a constant output regardless. With a Pump I don't have to have any small orifices which will be prone to blocking.  A basic filter or decent settling and the oil is good to go.



That well enough sums up the difficulties with drip feed. 

Even with a  metering pump there are issues that need to be addressed before a homemade burner can be deemed "safe" and  "idiot proof"  to name just 2 you need both a high temp limit and no fire shut off.  Problem is all of this takes the system past most people's definition of simple.  As I said earlier, your looking for rocking horse poo if looking for cheap,simple, safe and idiot proof, cant happen.
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

38ac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2327
    • View Profile
Re: oil burners
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2018, 10:25:51 PM »
 Simple was on the O.Ps list of requirements so I didn't take it as something that was up to interpretation and discussion.
So,
can we throw also throw out out waste oil, drip fed, safe and idiot proof and low cost? Makes the answer easy, heat with propane  ;D
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

dieselspanner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 726
    • View Profile
Re: oil burners
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2018, 10:56:29 PM »
"If simple was really the goal, We'd still all be diving vehicles with carburettors and Manual transmissions and wind up windows and no ABS, remote locking, power antenna's, auto headlights, air con and every one of the other " Complications" that are unnecessary on a modern vehicle"

Which is probably why I'm running around in a 1980 series Land rover with a 200 TDI stuffed into it........


Cheers Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
    • View Profile
Re: oil burners
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2018, 12:02:14 AM »
Complications which improve safety are are a good idea in my book. 
Flame sensing is tricky;  the optical cadmium sulphide sensors work but tend to get cooked.

Optical sensors are also tricky; I found one setup using a 18" long thick glass fiber in a bendable steel tube and remote Industrial Fiber Optics photodarlington detector that worked great on testing with a butane lighter.  I thought I'd cracked the flame detector problem very elegantly, but alas, it did not work for propane. The IR photodetecter couldn't see the pure blue flame worth a hoot.  I've still got this if your flame isn't all blue.

One method that is widely used in gas ovens is the ionized gas sensing method; a metal tip extends into the gas pilot flame, typically, and then electronically when the flame is present, it will pass a tiny amount of current from the tip to the chassis ground.  You often see these for gas ovens and the oven sensors are in various sizes are fairly cheap. The circuit must use an extremely high impedence FET transistor input.  If someone has a serious need for this I'd be glad to come up with a simple detection circuit.

Thermocouples are readily available, also.  Plenty of signal there. 



mikenash

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 955
    • View Profile
Re: oil burners
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2018, 01:36:07 AM »
Valuable comments guys, thanks.  Can't beat the voice of experience

It's like mechanics & machine shops tell you - you can have any two of "good" "fast" and "cheap" - but not all three, same with "simple" idiot-proof" etc to an extent, I guess

Back in the '90s, before NZ allowed the importation of used cars and back when we used to have a (tarrif-supported) local car-building industry, I used to make a chunk of my living buying, repairing/restoring and re-selling KE70 Corollas.  I had a three-acre paddock so a few carcasses "under the Macrocapas" was OK

Nothing much ever went wrong with them and, like the reliable, well-engineered Japanese cars they were, if it did, it tended to do so gradually and with plenty of warning.

Of course they rusted like nobody's business and so the wreckers' yards were full of KE70s with great, often quite low-K running gear - but rusted out bodies.  So, while a good body was like your rockinghorse shit, a good engine/gearbox/diff was worth almost nothing and they were happy to help you load it onto your trailer and take it away

So, whenever I sold one, I had a standing joke/boast:  "There's nothing I can't fix on that car in less than a day and for less than $100" and I was never proved wrong on that one

Low-tech cooling system - simple radiator with no aircon or oil coolers.  Pushrods.  Carb.  Points-and-coil ignition.  About ten bolts to get the gearbox out and light enough to do on your own.  No power steering but a light car with skinny tyres and a bigg-ish wheel so easy-peasy.  Simple rear drum-and handbrake assy etc etc etc

Of course they only did 30 MPG, had neither airbags, ABS nor side-intrusion bars and if you could get one to do 160 km/h it meant you had both a downhill gradient AND a tail wind. 

But, if you accepted their limitations they were: simple, good and idiot-proof

Thus, with the application of common-sense, a little bit of tech such as maybe a metering pump, and a willingness to take responsibility for my own actions, maybe there's an acceptable level of compromise that will make a waste-oil drip burner "do-able"?  or maybe not . . .

What prompted me to think about it in the first place is simply that my industry generates several tonnes of pretty clean "waste" oil every year which we just give away to the recycling man

As a poor man rather than a rich man I do things like building my own structures, plumbing, heating etc etc and taking personal responsibility for them - if I burn down the workshop I will have no-one else to blame

Also, as someone who can neither afford to buy or to maintain "new" cars I make a similar decision/compromise: I and my kids have old SV20 Camry wagons - they are the "last" ones before Toyota started making their cars lighter and more complex - so they have ABS and an airbag or two, aircon and maybe electric windows; they'll do 40 MPG if you ride the torque rather than the revs, and lots of them trundle reliably along into the 400, 000 Ks and beyond range.  PLUS, when something does go wrong - it's cheap and easy to fix

Sound familiar?

I guess we'll see where it all goes with the oil-burner thing

Just a final comment to say that, just as I'd never go out without making sure the fire is on a down-burning cycle, properly damped down and with the doors latched closed securely - equally I'd never leave a bloody home-made oil-burner running unattended.  But a couple of miserable-weather long-weekends when I had a friend staying and we spent most of the day just burning firewood, made me think that a need-to-be-attended oil-burner might be suitable on occasions

I guess we'll see

Cheers

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3054
    • View Profile
Re: oil burners
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2018, 02:31:06 AM »
Glort, the cheap K-type thermocouples (204C max) could be used as a heat detector, with a voltage comparator IC. An OP amp will do the same but comparators use less current.
 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/K-Type-Thermocouple-Wire-Digital-Thermometer-Temperature-Sensor-Probe-TC-1-1p/310382864123?epid=1739114012&hash=item484442a6fb:g:9XEAAOSwv0tVKTPc

Nothing wrong with the snap disc for heat detection if that will suffice- and they can directly switch modest AC currents.

The ionized gas sensing flame sensors look like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Amana-Goodman-Gas-Furnace-Flame-Sensor-Rod-B11726-06/322853953778?hash=item4b2b9860f2:g:QB4AAOSwi4dauuPR

You see these in furnaces, water heaters, and gas ovens so they should be pretty reliable. The tip must be in the flame (typically pilot flame).

A fet input comparator IC should suffice for that as well, but I'd have to play with one.