Author Topic: just happy to report - Lister 6/1 running great on WVO  (Read 1362 times)

tyssniffen

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just happy to report - Lister 6/1 running great on WVO
« on: May 26, 2018, 08:33:29 PM »
I've finally gotten this thing humming the way I'd always imagined, and now have probably a bit more than 100 hours with this set up.   

I don't have a water-adding device, nor have I changed the air filter from the stock.    Still, just happy things are working so well.   I suppose I'm posting this to open myself to criticism/advice on how to continue my streak of healthy running. 

Here's my short blog post with some photos:

http://journeyinthewoods.blogspot.com/2018/05/a-happily-burning-wvo-in-my-lister-gen.html
6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.

glort

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Re: just happy to report - Lister 6/1 running great on WVO
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2018, 02:49:54 PM »
  I suppose I'm posting this to open myself to criticism/advice on how to continue my streak of healthy running. 

Keep doing what you are doing!

But consider adding some WI just as preventative maintenance.  :0)

I think the key to the whole Veg/ WMO thing is Clean, dry oil.  An awful lot of problems are caused by the quality of the fuel rather than the fuel type itself.
Like a person, if you feed them rubbish they have problems sooner or later. Give them good food and those problems are highly Diminished.

Most people over complicate anything to do with Veg.  My vehicle has been running on veg 4-5 years now and the ONLY modification to it is a different fuel filter from another vehicle because I get them for nothing and the water injection.  That's it. No stuffing round with heating the fuel, change over solenoids, 2nd fuel lines or any of the other rubbish. Manufacturers spent a lot of money and put a lot of experience into making that fuel system reliable as they could. Buggers me why people want to make it " Better" by adding in 15 new failure points!

Couple of things.....

Adding in petrol to the Oil is a good thing.  I reckon 5% brings the timing of veg back to that similar of diesel.  I use 10% in winter, 15% in extreme cases.
Using blended fuel eliminates the need for Purging wither way.  Try 10% ULP in winter, 5% in summer and see how you go starting. I'll guarantee you;ll have no trouble and then you won't need to worry about putting diesel through at the end of a run.  My Roid starts on cold straight Veg same as it starts easily on anything else.  I fired it up a couple of months ago on what was just sitting in teh filter housing for what mush have been 2 years. No trouble at all starting it straight up.

Instead of expensive " Injection cleaner" what you want is a bottle of Naptha. It's sold as lighter fluid, Coleman gas, White spirit  and other things but it is the overwhelming main ingredient in every Fuel and oil system cleaner out there. ALL of them. you can look up the MSDS sheets and see for yourself.

Here an injection cleaner is about $15 for a 200?ml bottle where the stuff is maybe 50% concentrate. The rest is kero or diesel and maybe a bit of ethanol.  By the same token, I can buy a 1L bottle of naptha in a not particularly cheap place for $8.
Throw a bit ( or a lot) of that in your oil and you'll save a lot on the packaged cleaners which are the self same stuff.

Glad it's going well for you.  I would expect nothing less!  :0)

Camp9

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Re: just happy to report - Lister 6/1 running great on WVO
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2020, 11:49:09 PM »
Glort, what kind of water injection set up do you have?  Thanks.

glort

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Re: just happy to report - Lister 6/1 running great on WVO
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2020, 01:02:47 AM »

A home made one.

The ONLY requirement is to get water in there in not too great an amount.  It does NOT have to go in like a vapour Fine mist, you do not need high pressure pumps and it does not need to be expensive of Complicated as so many people seem to think is a requirement for many things to work.

You can get small Pulse Pumps off ebay for Coffee machines and other things. You can also get cheap little Timers.  For people starting out with WI I would just hook a timer to a pump and let it inject the water that way.  You can control ultimate dosing with a 1 sec on and 10 or however many sec off and use a flattened bit of 1/4" or 3/8 Copper tube as the Nozzle. That's all I have used on my vehicle and other things for years.
Alternately you can use those little garden watering  Misting Nozzles for pot plants.

DO NOT be concerned about the pet Phobia everyone has with putting too much water in and hydrolocking the engine.  That is a complete and utter fallacy.  Unless you put water in the inlet with a garden hose, this won't happen.  If you put too much water in you will hear the engine stumble and cough a Loong time before it locks.  You would have to have a high pressure flow out of a 3/8 line to lock one up.

For flow you can start around half to equal Fuel consumption. The qty is in no way critical, it's just a matter of making it relatively Constant.
A lot of people use a spray Bottle and just squirt it in at the end of a run or whatever batch style.  That seems to work  but my personal preference is to dose the engine while it is running at regular intervals rather than a Batch process.

Many people also worry about leaving the water on and filling the engine.  If that happened, unless you left it a long time, no big deal anyway.  Pull the injector, blow the water out, reinstall and re start.  Of course what one would logicaly do is have a fail safe that the water will only run when the water is running or inject the water at a point where it will run back out the Air cleaner rather than into the engine if it were left going. There are little power supply boards you can get off fleabay that cost about Au $2. They run from about 80V to 400V ac or DC.  If running a generator you could have one of those on the output Driving a Solid state relay or just a Mosfet to power the Pump. No generator output, no pump. Lots of other ways of doing it as well as just putting a reminder sign near the engine or electrical switches when you shut down.

The main thing is just keep it simple. Can't stress that enough.  so many times I talk to people about this and they go off trying to design out problems that only exist in their heads.  This is simple and straightforward and very effective.  Can be done cheap and easy and all you need to do is get some water in there regularly.

With WI you can run WMO, WVO or pretty much anything the engine will run on with no problems or fears of clagging them up.

Camp9

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Re: just happy to report - Lister 6/1 running great on WVO
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2020, 02:42:11 PM »
I've been reading about this for quite some time, and guys using windshield washer fluid or just water.  I have hurt two of my Ford trucks in the past on wmo but have put 10's of thousands of miles on them before signs of the piston rings seezing up.  I farm and use wvo and wmo in tractors too.  Even a VW with a 1.9 tdi.  I appreciate the insight from your experience.  Only thing I can think to add is if your engine has a turbo is adding the WI after the turbo or in a way water won't go through the trubo.  I like simplicity.  I'll be shopping eBay today
« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 04:17:33 PM by Camp9 »

glort

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Re: just happy to report - Lister 6/1 running great on WVO
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2020, 04:53:44 AM »

I ran water Pre turbo and I couldn't see where it did anything to erode the blades. I don't think it has the density to do anything.

Washer fluid has some Alcohol in it. This I have found helps a lot with Cleaning and certainly with power.  On my truck running 50% Methanol Or ethanol in the water, it gets a BIG kick in the tail. At the rate I am injecting that's around 20Hp and on that engine you can really feel it.  To me feels like much more but that is what the energy value works out at.

The whole thing with the water is to stop the problems you have had. The gunk builds slowly which is why I prefer regular dosing over the batch method.
I have had clagged engines and they came good Very slowly but very surely over about 3 Months. I have the fuel turned way up on my truck which as you would know is a bad thing with alternative fuels as it Clags them Real Fast, but I have never had a problem because of the WI.
It takes away any deposits before they really get a chance to stick to anything. Given the clagging is the Biggest problem with Alt fuels, having a way to eliminate it is a real Bonus. WMO is particularly suitable to leaving deposits and although I haven't run much of it preferring WVO, it would work the same way and add a lot of protection for engines running it.

I was running WVO and WI on one of my little china stationary engines.  It was working hard and smoking well for a long time.  After many hours use I decided to whip the head and barrel off the thing to have a look and I was stunned. The head and the piston were so clean it looked like they have been hot tanked or something not even carbon.  If Someone had shown me this I would have not really believed them That his engine had been working then pulled down and that's how it looked. That was many years ago and If I ever had any doubts as to how effective water was, I never have since.

I want to set up a WI System on my little Kubota engine.  I'm going to use a little pulse pump and either a very small Carburettor jet for the metering or see if I can get some of those Micro fine drills and a little pulse pump. Bit of metho in the water will also help speed up the initial clean and give it more power as well.

If You run water post turbo, You can use a sealed container for the water and run a bleed pipe from after the turbo back to the tank. This equalises the pressure in the tank so the pump is not trying to push against the boost pressure as well.

Camp9

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Re: just happy to report - Lister 6/1 running great on WVO
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2020, 03:23:59 PM »
Yep that boost pressure was a thought as well.  The vacuum in the intake would create some natural suction too. Thanks much, parts are ordered.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2020, 03:27:28 PM by Camp9 »

glort

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Re: just happy to report - Lister 6/1 running great on WVO
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2020, 12:49:42 AM »

Not a lot of Vac on a diesel. Not unless you have a restricted intake/ air filter which isn't good.

I was thinking about what you said about washer pumps. Tried them and they weren't great but depends how often you are going to use one.
On a car where they are set up for high throttle or to only come with boost might be OK and if you had one on a stationary engine on a timer so they came on for say 10 sec every minute or so might also be OK.

I have used those Diaphragm water pumps and they seem a bit hit and miss. They either last forever or they die quick.
What you did lead me to thinking about was control.  I like pulse pumps because they don't care how often you turn them on and off.  If one had a regular constant spinning motor, It could easily be controlled with a low Voltage PWM board.  I would still put a Nozzle in of some sort but you could then just dial in the motor speed to give you the flow you wanted.

From there a number of other possibilities exist.  One could also add in a thermostat so the water never came on when the engine was cold. Something I prefer not to do but probably no great detriment. One could also 2 step the injection.  One lower dosage going through the PWM and a higher one that bypassed it say on a vehicle with a Turbo.

The advantage of having a larger pump and being able to turn it down or tune it on a stationary engine would be a very good one. Again, Add a little thermostat board that won't fire the water till the engine is up to temp and a timer to time the water.  Could be anything from a second on to a second off and beyond. Starting a regular running motor like that wouldn't be a great idea but it would work with a puls pup although I don't know how limiting that with a PWM would go? Might work as it may limit the plunger travel in the pump and give it less displacement.

Best pumps for stationary use are dosing pumps but I have not found any of those cheap enough for this sort of application and the Chinese Component types are complete and utter rubbish that wouldn't last a day.

Everyone goes on about Bullet proof and simple but that is a misnomer IMHO.  There are things you can do simply that add a lot of benefit and increase the protection offered and still be as reliable as one is likley to get.  People talk about they don't want electric fans on radiators as they might stop. They don't see a belt can break just as or more easily nor take into account every car in the last 20 Years has had electric fans and you don't hear of them failing and being a cause of failure any more than any other engine failure.  That is rare in fact.

I have some radiator fans on my shed window connected to a solar panel on the roof for ventilation.  They have been here for 3 years now working every day except for maybe a couple of months in the winter when I disconnect them.  They log up huge hours and the car they came off was 15 yo to start with.

I think people in this game should look at other things and see that times change and things don't have to be out of the '20s to be reliable.
There are loads of Cheap electronics available to us now that can greatly enhance the function and abilities we have with different tasks and it's smart to take advantage of what is out there even if we are applying it to 100+yo technology.   :0)