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Author Topic: NEW Listeroid issue  (Read 3819 times)

queenofjacks

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NEW Listeroid issue
« on: April 05, 2018, 11:01:19 PM »
  Here's an issue that just cropped up today with my NEW Listeroid project.
  When I first got the unit, I noticed that it had blown some very oily soot out of one of the exhaust mufflers.  After I got it running and the pumps balanced, the problem more or less went away.  The oil level was just barely touching the dipstick. I removed the back crankcase cover to check things out (in order to verify the crankshaft throws while I was going through the balancing process) and I discovered that the oil "splash paddles" were turned 90 degrees from where they should be (in other words, sort of "knife edge" to the direction of rotation).  I turned them 90 degrees to achieve maximum "splash".  I added a couple of quarts or so to bring it up to the second mark on the stick - which I assumed was the "full" mark.  After putting the cover on, I fired it up and noticed that the cylinder that had the oily muffler earlier began to smoke (white smoke).  It rapidly got worse and began to "run away".  I shut off the fuel and it was still trying to run.  I decompressed it and it stopped.  Soooo, it looks like the oil level is too high (dipstick obviously miss-marked) and/or too much "splash" going on.  It is trying to run on the lube oil getting by the rings ---  blowing some oil droplets out of that one muffler.  When the oil level was lower and the "splash paddles" were turned in a "knife edge" direction, there was no problem - (well -- just a teeny trace of light smoke from the one cylinder).
  So my thoughts are that I have too much oil in the crankcase, at the moment, and also maybe too much splash (or both).  the one cylinder that smokes slightly may have to "break in" some more (remember, this is a new unit ---- I doubt if it has more than a couple of hours or so on it). 
  I plan on reducing the oil level back to where it was and turning the "splash paddles back to their original position and checking it out again.  Meanwhile --- any suggestions??
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dieselgman

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Re: NEW Listeroid issue
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2018, 11:58:16 PM »
Knife-edge is the correct orientation for your oil dippers. White smoke may be an injector failing to atomize the fuel. If the unit ran away from you a bit, it could be the excess oil in the cylinder, or could also be excess fuel build-up in that cylinder. I recently had one that we could not shut down and it wanted to rev despite all efforts to control the fuel... had to block off the air to get it under control. In the case mentioned, we had a fuel pump rack that was out of calibration with the pump element.

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mike90045

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Re: NEW Listeroid issue
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2018, 12:32:16 AM »
At one time, someone rigged up a plastic crankcase cover and observed that when the engine is up to speed, the entire bottom end is "fogged" with whipped up oil from knife edge dippers.
  I think as long as most of the dipper and nearly to the castle nuts of the crank, is the correct oil level.


Hugh Conway

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Re: NEW Listeroid issue
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2018, 01:38:39 AM »
@QueenofJacks
Do you have a double sump engine? If so, the oil pump should keep the oil level in the top sump at the level of the weir. The dipstick in a double sump Listeroid only measures oil in the top weir, it does not tell you anything about the lower sump where the pump intake is. really kind of useless. The Dursley Listers don't have "em.
You will get plenty of splash with the dippers at knife edge. I can attest that if one opens the access door while the engine is running, one will see first hand how much oil gets flung around in there. Don't do it though, just take my word for it and don't ask me how I found out! It is sufficient to note that a large area of my garage was also lubricated at the time of my discovery.
I found that there was excessive smoking and a slobbering exhaust until the rings were properly worn in and seated when first commissioning my Listeroid 6/1. A partial load for a few hours, then an increasing load for a few more. After about 25 hours, all was well.
Have fun tinkering
Cheers,
Hugh
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queenofjacks

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Re: NEW Listeroid issue
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2018, 02:48:24 AM »
 You guys are really a wealth of information!!  You have shed a bright light on things and confirmed my suspicions!  I thought that the slobbering was probably a case of rings not being seated -- the longer I ran it, the better the slobbering got --- until I created an "oil hurricane" in the crankcase!  I will revisit the situation in the morning and return things to their previous state.  Then I'll double check the oil level and remark the dipstick.  I'm confident that that will cure my issue.  Seems that I created the issue!  Learned something, Tho!  I'll keep you posted! --- Cheers,
                                                                                                                                                                  Charlie
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 02:51:21 AM by queenofjacks »
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veggie

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Re: NEW Listeroid issue
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2018, 02:47:04 PM »
The slobber is typical for a new engine.
I think mine took about 5 hrs until it went away.
I also noticed excessive mist coming coming from my crankcase breather for a few hours indicating that the piston rings had not yet seated. That too went away.
If you can run under something like 50% load for a while it will help to seat the rings.
The longer you run with no load the longer the problem will linger.

good luck,
veggie
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2Ton46

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Re: NEW Listeroid issue
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2018, 03:23:21 AM »
My 12/2 has had some intermittent slobber on both cylinders. Just when I thought it had cleared up it would come back, over about 25 hours or so.  It seems to have settled in now, especially after I upped the load with the compressor tied to it on the last few runs.  Mine also likes to pull in oil around the valve stems, and this may contribute some slobber especially with a light load. With a heavier load, it sometimes smokes a little until the oil level on the head drops enough to slow the oil flow. Hopefully the valves will go as is for the rest of the season and then when the weather cools off again I'll be doing a proper valve job.

ronmar

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Re: NEW Listeroid issue
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2018, 03:56:36 AM »
At one time, someone rigged up a plastic crankcase cover and observed that when the engine is up to speed, the entire bottom end is "fogged" with whipped up oil from knife edge dippers.
  I think as long as most of the dipper and nearly to the castle nuts of the crank, is the correct oil level.

That was me, the plexi window coated with oil so quickly you couldnt see anything after just a few seconds.  Did a better video with no window, just bagged everything to catch the oil thrown out the door and put the camera high enough to be out of the splash zone.  Note the far side of the engine compartment is pretty quickly coated completely with oil so a knife edge slings plenty of oil. 

Here is a link to the better vid.  https://youtu.be/ccBrlz-qg5w


As for the slobber, put a load on it!  50% is ok, but 80-90% would be better IMO.  As for oil level, that is why I like the dual sump design, as the lip on the upper sump maintains the ideal dipper oil level as the excess oil pumped up for the main bearings just runs over the lip to the lower sump. 

I think it was Magic Jack who had a lot of great info on oil level as he used a single long term for power.  All over-filled oil went past the rings and was burnt.  It would consume oil rapidely and slobber down to its sweet spot, then stop...

Have you done the “reed in the mist” mod? I think it is a great mod to insure the camshaft far-end bearing gets plenty of oil...
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38ac

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Re: NEW Listeroid issue
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2018, 12:25:40 PM »
.  Mine also likes to pull in oil around the valve stems, and this may contribute some slobber especially with a light load. With a heavier load, it sometimes smokes a little until the oil level on the head drops enough to slow the oil flow. Hopefully the valves will go as is for the rest of the season and then when the weather cools off again I'll be doing a proper valve job.

Two very common causes of that.  Most India valve guides are reamed 11mm, the valve stems are 7/16. .011  clearance= bad. Second thing is some brain surgeon over there decided to drill holes in the side of the guides down in the well.
Correct the stem clearance, and plug the holes in the guides with a piece of lead shot, problem cured.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 01:21:09 PM by 38ac »
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38ac

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Re: NEW Listeroid issue
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2018, 01:13:47 PM »
Quote from: ronmar


As for the slobber, put a load on it!  50% is ok, but 80-90% would be better IMO.  As for oil level, that is why I like the dual sump design, as the lip on the upper sump maintains the ideal dipper oil level as the excess oil pumped up for the main bearings just runs over the lip to the lower sump. 

I think it was Magic Jack who had a lot of great info on oil level as he used a single long term for power.  All over-filled oil went past the rings and was burnt.  It would consume oil rapidely and slobber down to its sweet spot, then stop...


A once famous TV Marine would say Shazam!!! LOL. Exactly how much splash an engine will tolerate depends on bore and ring comdition,  clearances. Why fight it?  I have always invited nay sayers and the curious to start  thier engines, run them just a couple minutes, shut them down and remove the crankcase door, caution! ! Have plenty of rags handy.
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ronmar

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Re: NEW Listeroid issue
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2018, 09:23:29 PM »
Another cause of excessive oil down past the valve guides is over-filling the wells...  They just need a little in the bottom. Do not fill the wells above the top of the guides. Since the guides usually do not protrude above the lip of the spring/guide well, if the well is full, you are probably overfilled...  again, the good news is that the engine will quickly consume the excess down to the right level:)  The warm head causes the oil to easilly wick up the valve guide and springs to meet the lube needs of the valve stems/guides...
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listard-jp2

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Re: NEW Listeroid issue
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2018, 07:14:45 PM »
Some brain surgeon over there decided to drill holes in the side of the guides down in the well.

They got that idea by copying the valve guide design of Ruston Hornsby vertical range of diesel engines such as the VTH and VSH series.

It works well on the Ruston Hornsby engines because the hole location is not in a position where it can obtain a plentiful supply of oil, unlike the Lister CS guides which allow oil to be retained in the well around the top of the guides.

38ac

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Re: NEW Listeroid issue
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2018, 12:05:26 PM »
Once the India goof ups are corrected the wells are no different than the crankcase. If it rapidly consumes the top half then quit filling them up to the top ;).  When the stems and guides are corrected there oil usage up top is very minimal. If you oil the rockershaft very often what runs off it it is more than the wells consume.
I do believe that top end lubrication is waaay over thought about. The Amish squirt a little bit of filthy old oil,road tar or bacon grease up there once a year and dont fret it further yet I havent seen unreasonable wear on the OEM stems and guides
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