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Author Topic: Automatic Remote Control Generating Sets  (Read 3013 times)

mikenash

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Re: Automatic Remote Control Generating Sets
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2020, 03:46:21 PM »
A beautiful set-up and probably installed by a company at the top of their game back then maybe anticipating 30 years of faithful service from the POV of 1952 in a rural setting.  A great find

sinna42

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Re: Automatic Remote Control Generating Sets
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2020, 04:01:01 PM »
Indeed ! That's what I thought when it popped up on Ebay !
Mains electricity arrived at the farm in 1957, so after then it must have only been used intermittently.
They must have used both main & genny power as there is a changeover switch that I got with it !
I think it had been worked hard though.

I'm well on with the refurb, but it had some abuse unfortunately. Many fasteners severely overtightened & others not so !
The big ends were well worn 0.010 to 0.012" undersize but fitted with standard non SOM bearings ! Got 0.010 undersize SOM type bearings & everything is good.
Cylinders not too bad with only a small patch of chrome worn through, pistons ok too.
Oddly the fuel tappets & the bores they fit into were extremely worn giving an up to 0.025" rattle fit !
Usual frost damage was easily fixed with silver solder !
Valves & valve guides needed to be replaced too.

Cheers,
Jim
Lister CS 3/1 1938, Lister CS 3/1 1939, Lister H4 Pump, Coventry Victor AN4 Mk1 1944, Gardner 1L2 1962

AdeV

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Re: Automatic Remote Control Generating Sets
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2020, 05:41:04 PM »
My guess, looking at is, is that originally it was a hand-start engine. It's got at least one of the manual fuel shut-off levers; and the manual decompressors. The SOM units (I assume the twins - although I've not seen one of those) would have a shaft which engaged the decompression lifters, mechanically coupled to the fuel rack actuator; so when the solenoid was released, spring pressure would push the rack shut & engage the decompression. When starting, the solenoid is powered up, pulling the whole system out of engagement.

I can't see - but I assume it's there somewhere - any kind of linkage between the two fuel pumps? If there's nowt there, then the engine will presumably not shut down automatically, you'd have to go and switch the fuel pump off by hand. And apply decompression should you so desire.
Cheers!
Ade.
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1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

sinna42

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Re: Automatic Remote Control Generating Sets
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2020, 02:43:43 PM »
Hi Ade,
Apologies for seemingly hijacking this thread but it's topic is certainly common to Malcolm's & my engine !

This set is completely original and hasn't been messed about with at all. It was installed in 1952 exactly as we see it today.
So the lack of a decompression actuator solenoid is really quite a surprise.
The compression C/O valves with their convex shape was maybe the first step in going to the plugs that we see on Malcolm's 18/2 engine. I've seen reference to these C/O valves on another post on this forum.
Perhaps the 7.5kVA generator was capable of turning over the engine with full compression ? Of course I'm nowhere near trying that yet !

In answer to your question - yes the 2 fuel pump racks are linked together & are controlled by the governor in exactly the same way as with Malcolm's.
So there is the FCS (Fuel Control Solenoid) & the microswitch which senses when the engine is up to speed.
I'm not quite sure how this FCS works but it's spring loaded to the stop position & by solenoid action must allow the racks to open to full throttle position.
I have no toggle on the fuel rack to limit the full throttle position - I see Malcolm's does !

The 585/1260 manual that Malcolm has will, I'm sure, explain everything !
Hope he can copy it for me.

Cheers,
Jim
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 04:16:08 PM by sinna42 »
Lister CS 3/1 1938, Lister CS 3/1 1939, Lister H4 Pump, Coventry Victor AN4 Mk1 1944, Gardner 1L2 1962

AdeV

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Re: Automatic Remote Control Generating Sets
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2020, 05:45:11 PM »
Hi Jim,

Can you take a closeup of how the fuel racks are connected? Because I couldn't see it in the photos posted... would be interesting!

Regarding the decompression - I'd expect the starter to be able to pull the engine through full compression. My 6/1 has a mangled together ST head, with a flex plate off, erm, something, and a Ford 12v starter motor on it, and with a good 12v battery, it has no problem with compression. I don't have the solenoid on mine, so I have to do any fuel rack closing/decompression by hand; that's more to do with laziness than anything else, I've just never got around to sorting it out properly....

COVs - these were never fitted to the 8/1 engines, they always (IIRC!) had a "blanking plug" installed. Presumably, by then, Lister were able to confidently run the engines at full power on the higher compression; or maybe the plugs give a half-way house between low and high. On the older 3/1, 5/1 and so on, the higher compression was required to start, but once running, the engine was less stressed on the lower compression (and still gave the power). Of course, that would presumably mean that your S-o-M set would automatically start, then you'd have to dash out to the engine shed (in the cold wet and dark - this is England after all!), spin the C-o-V to low compression; then, when going to bed, you'd presumably have to repeat the process to ensure the engine was on high compression, ready to start in the morning! More likely, I bet every S-o-M lighting plant spent the bulk of its life on high compression....
Cheers!
Ade.
--------------
1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

sinna42

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Re: Automatic Remote Control Generating Sets
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2020, 03:35:54 PM »
Hi Ade,

Attached are photos that show the linkages to the fuel pumps.
First is a top view which isn't particularily clear & the 2nd & 3rd ones show the non governor & governor sides.
On the governor side the bolt with the "pad" engages with the engine speed detection microswitch.

I can confirm that this set is exactly as supplied as the electrical circuit diagram matches exactly with the physical components & is date stamped 1952, the year of supply.

I will post photos of the special compression COVs used on this 12/2 engine along with a standard 6/1 one for comparison.

Cheers,
Jim
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 03:39:33 PM by sinna42 »
Lister CS 3/1 1938, Lister CS 3/1 1939, Lister H4 Pump, Coventry Victor AN4 Mk1 1944, Gardner 1L2 1962

AdeV

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Re: Automatic Remote Control Generating Sets
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2020, 08:54:55 PM »
Aaah, ok, that makes perfect sense now, thanks for the pics! One thing.... it'd be much appreciated if you could re-size them a little smaller before uploading them please? The forum software isn't that great at showing pictures, so unless you're on a 4K screen (I'm not...) it gets a bit iffy viewing them.

Pro tip: Right-click the thumbnail & select "Open content in new tab/window" or similar, then let your browser handle the zooming in/out...

Cheers!
Ade.
--------------
1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

sinna42

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Re: Automatic Remote Control Generating Sets
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2020, 08:41:10 AM »
Hi Ade,

Sorry about the photos being too big - I'll resize them before posting.
Tried deleting them so I could post resized ones, but I can't do that. As you say opening in a new window works fine.

Attached is photo of the compression COVs, the one on the right being the type fitted to my 12/2.
Pt No on the standard Main Plug is 8-1/C3 & the other is 10-5/259.

Interestingly the 1970 CS booklet 103/171 for the 6/1, 8/1, 12/2 & 16/2 engines shows the engines fitted with blanking plugs as standard. The compression COVs are an optional extra.
There is no mention of the different Main Plug.
I wonder if this was a short lived variant, that was fitted to gen sets ?

Cheers,
Jim
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 04:02:57 PM by sinna42 »
Lister CS 3/1 1938, Lister CS 3/1 1939, Lister H4 Pump, Coventry Victor AN4 Mk1 1944, Gardner 1L2 1962

mikenash

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Re: Automatic Remote Control Generating Sets
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2020, 04:57:55 PM »
Those old Lister engineers lived in an era when technology had been changing quite slowly, especially from the POV of designers working on engines in the '20s and 30s.  Remember it took them years to decide that a 3/1 could give another half HP at an extra 50 RPM and a 5/1 could make an extra horsepower at 650 RPM

It wouldn't surprise me to fin d there was an ongoing "service bulletin" system and that at some point installation engineers fitted, say, the convex COV to SOM machines, but with an extra base gasket . . . that sort of thing

Although we look back and think of them as fairly static, or as having changed in stages, I would guess there was constant, minor, incremental change; and that engineers in, say, freezing northern Scotland had a different "tune" as standard to those in Manchester - that sort of thing