Author Topic: The future of electric Vehicles.  (Read 46431 times)

mikenash

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #165 on: May 01, 2018, 04:33:51 AM »

BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #166 on: May 01, 2018, 08:33:49 AM »
All the latest windmill designs are now DC generators with an industrial inverter on the output, so harmonic distortions and destabilizaton are not the same issues as before.  California has also added new specifications for GTIs which will improve stability.  Obviously, that is the place to be doing it...just as Glort's GTI's won't over voltage the line, newer designs can correct power factor and line distortions as well.

I'm disgusted with green washing as well...alas, propaganda works.

I saw a youtube video on Thorium reactors that makes me angry about how all the safety problems of solid fuel reactors were well known and that a much, much safer and dramatically less waste producing system was designed, built, documented and then abandoned. Alvin Weinburg was then fired as head of Oak Ridge by prick Nixon in 1973 because he kept talking publicly about the successful and much safer thorium molten salt reactor breakthrough he had proven.  I was even more impressed with the safety details of this reactor; if anything goes wrong (core gets too hot) or power is cut off from the plant, a  plug of salt melts and  molten salt fuel is held in a vessel below the core.  Without the graphite core moderator, it can't sustain fusion so just cools itself off in that tank.  No high pressure steam, no hydrogen, no explosion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6mhw-CNxaE

Other information is that thorium is a waste product of mining for rare earths, and so we already have ample supplies. 

It makes me pretty pissed off at the US nuclear power industry and regulatory agencies of the 60s and early 70's.  Most of the current nuclear engineers don't even know that a molten salt thorium reactor was already built and operating back then, and just accept pressurized water- solid fuel systems as all there is or could be.  I was given the same indoctrination as a young engineer. 

















« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 08:35:55 AM by BruceM »

BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #167 on: May 01, 2018, 05:34:06 PM »
Democracy at it's best is reactive in nature, which makes long term planning a serious problem. Then when you add in mega-corporate manipulation of democracy it gets severely warped.  It may be the best system of government we can come up with, but it may also lead to extinction.  As world population is at 7.6 billion and increasing by 1.13% per year US population is still being fed messages of how we must have growth of our economy.

I note that the Australian government is similar though less blatant; while the public is fed green propaganda, the government is making a bundle licensing massive coal and gas exports to a consortium of the biggest oil/coal companies in the world. Meanwhile the Aussie public is paying grossly inflated prices for their dominantly coal fed power grid and for natural gas for domestic use.  This is an example of the sort of simple manipulation of democracy that is happening everywhere. 

While the US public is fed such baloney as LED light bulbs, electric cars and wireless everything, US fossil fuel production is up, up up. 

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=34572

Australia has better quality greenwashing but if you look at the first page of the report showing a chart of exports, you will see their gas and coal exports continue to increase...

https://industry.gov.au/Office-of-the-Chief-Economist/Publications/Documents/energy-in-aust/energy-in-australia-fact-card.pdf

It seems that there is a race to profit from mineral resources.

Germany doesn't have much in the way of domestic oil and gas, but I did find some charts that show that their imports of same are increasing.  Their coal production and use is increasing.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/11/13/germany-is-a-coal-burning-gas-guzzling-climate-change-hypocrite/

It seems the hairless apes are out of control.








buickanddeere

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #168 on: May 01, 2018, 07:35:06 PM »
    Denmark for all their green posturing and socialist utopia. Most people are clueless about or willingly blind to Denmark selling gas and oil to fund EV subsidies , “free” healthcare, “free” education and a high minimum wage .
    They are rather tight lipped about the amount of income tax Danes pay or the tariffs paid on an ICE vehicle .

BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #169 on: May 01, 2018, 09:10:51 PM »
Denmark is certainly engaging in "world class" major oil and gas exporting hypocrisy. They are a capitalistic democracy, after all.  No doubt the people get fed the very best quality greenwashed propaganda. That may be the best that democracies can do.

My older brother is in his last few years of serious heart disease, still working himself to death quite literally after 20 years of 80 hr weeks putting his 3 kids through college. (One with 1.5 years left to go and disabled.)  I don't view universal health care or universal education as foolish expenditures, or as things that don't improve the quality of life for most working men with families.  I recently had to forgo homeowner's insurance to pay for a medication 40 years out of patent and with cheap generics everywhere else in the world but not here in the US where Pfizer has a monopoly, so I'm not so impressed with America's "beacon of light" and "freedom", or "health care". My drug insurance co. doesn't cover it as it's not on their formulary and a letter from my doctor got me the usual denial.

Condemnation of another democracy for choosing to support their people with their wealth from oil, gas and coal seems like a strange position to me.  By all independent measures the Danish populace is much happier and satisfied with life than Americans. 

I can hardly imagine a place with good paid public schools through college and no worries about anything but getting well if you get sick or injured.  Parents only need to worry about parenting. I know a Dane who's Dad just died from Parkinson's in Denmark; social services came and reviewed his wishes and situation and he got in home care and help for his elderly wife, appropriate to their needs, all the way to the end where he had in home care round the clock. He NEVER had to worry about bankruptcy, losing his home, or not being able to afford the medications and extensive help he needed. 















AdeV

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #170 on: May 02, 2018, 12:18:24 AM »
I'll say one thing for the Chinese, they don't have the BS and corruption in politics like the west does.

At the "big showcase projects" level, you're probably right; the Chinese have a very JFDI attitude (Just Fucking Do It). Lower down the tree, though, and corruption is endemic. Every Party or government official you meet needs his palm greasing before things will happen... money which is supposed to be used on repairs or local infrastructure gets spent alright, but the roads remain in a godawful condition, water pisses out on the streets where they can't be bothered fixing the pipes, and god help you if you're on the end of the electricity line that got blown down in the storm... unless you're willing to let some official trouser yet more cash, so he can divert some of what was going into his personal account, into the actual job of making a repair.

Chinese society is not one that we need to copy... Chinese industriousness, on the other hand, well, the West could use some of that like a shot in the arm... but preferably without the palm greasing.

They truly are there for the people.

Hmm, again, even less that one. The big projects are there to say "Look how good China's Communist Government is" (much like any big National Showcase project in any country). China is criss-crossing the country with high-speed rail links, which sounds great, unless you live in the way... in which case you Will Be Moved On (No Arguments Will Be Tolerated).  That said, Xi Jinping is doing some good things for some of the very poorest in China (now that's really upsetting the Do Gooders - who've been bitching about China's one-party state for years, but when that party suddenly starts helping the very poorest, it kind of pulls the rug out from their do-gooding, and there's nothing that makes a do-gooder crosser than that!), so it's not all bad.

Those roads, though... I've genuinely driven (well, been driven, in a tax) down a major city street which had holes big enough - and I'm not exaggerating - to swallow an entire small car. It was like being on a roller coaster at times.
Cheers!
Ade.
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BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #171 on: May 02, 2018, 12:55:09 AM »
Marvelous post on China, AdeV.  I also admire some of what they do (population control) and not others (ignoring pollution until people are dying by droves ).  I expect the ratting out of non-conformist neighbors to the party is much like in the old Soviet controlled countries.

Alas, every country is run by nothing but humans. 






mikenash

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #172 on: May 02, 2018, 05:01:32 AM »
Democracy at it's best is reactive in nature, which makes long term planning a serious problem. Then when you add in mega-corporate manipulation of democracy it gets severely warped.  It may be the best system of government we can come up with, but it may also lead to extinction.  As world population is at 7.6 billion and increasing by 1.13% per year US population is still being fed messages of how we must have growth of our economy.



Bruce, I often admire your insights . . .

I would add to that that, in China the rulers don't have to answer to anyone but themselves.  Thus they can get things done in a way that we, shackled by the 3,4,or 5-year electoral cycle and by politicians who are short-sighted at best and completely captured by interest groups/industry at worst, are crippled by the need to get re-elected . . .

Of course the Chinese - since they don't have to answer to an electorate - can do whatever they like in terms of human rights abuses, political meddling etc etc

I often think some sort of benign dictatorship - if we could find such a thing - would be a good middle-ground

Cheers

oldgoat

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #173 on: May 02, 2018, 11:14:52 AM »
At the rate things are going you might get your wish.

BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #174 on: May 04, 2018, 09:04:18 PM »
I found a really well written technical article on molten salt thorium reactors also known as LFTR or liquid fluoride thorium reactor. Fluoride is the salt Alvin Weinberg used in his successful thorium fueled reactor at Oak Ridge in the 60's.

https://eic.rsc.org/feature/is-thorium-the-perfect-fuel/2000092.article

There some good links for more info at the bottom of it.

Be wary of articles about solid fuel thorium (aka fast thorium) which is not at all the same.

The very interesting aspect of this article was that Alvin Weinberg's LFTR reactor work at Oak Ridge was re-found by a NASA engineer looking for a way to have nuclear power on the moon- where water can't be used for the typical solid uranium fuel, pressurized water system. 

This benefit of LFTR (aka molten salt thorium) would be HUGE in the southwestern US or other landlocked desert areas.  CO2 or Helium are heated to drive turbines, instead of steam. That approach has been proven by the pebble bed prototype reactor in Germany and that component did work well, though the pebbles of graphite coated uranium had serious  problems.  Massive water use by all the steam powered (coal and the Palo Verde nuclear) electrical power plants here in AZ are a very serious problem; all our ancient aquifers are shrinking. We are living on borrowed time, water wise, and growth is continuing. Climate prospects for the SW US are hotter and drier. 












LowGear

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #175 on: May 13, 2018, 05:04:41 PM »
Quote
They seem to be heading into deeper red ink and the only people that are denying that are Musk and the Tesla brainwashed Fanboys.

I prefer to think of myself as a Elon Fanboy.  What an amazing person.  What an amazing life - so far.  I stopped by a Tesla showroom in a large shopping center East of Seattle.  Even the Model 3 is way big for me and the prices are closer to the land deals I still dream about.  There are more vehicles coming down the marketing road that make much more sense to me but they would not be here this or probably next decade without the Elon.

Another amazing thing to me is that oil companies still think of themselves as oil companies and not energy giants.  They're missing the electrical charging station scramble just as the railroads missed the pipeline phenomena.  Railroads are transportation companies but decided the transportation of liquids in tubes was and is outside their service in spite of all those right of ways.  Han't anyone told the oil moguls that much of the electricity they would be selling is made with petroleum and will continue to be produced this way for a couple of decades?

 I'm concerned that Elon hasn't read about Henry Ford and the tragedy of his life story?  Anyway.

Go Elon!  Turn this world on it's ear.  Go Elon!
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buickanddeere

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #176 on: May 13, 2018, 08:01:29 PM »
  While Elon is an excellent salesman. Elon can not change the laws of physics.   

ajaffa1

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #177 on: May 13, 2018, 11:24:13 PM »
Not only can he not change the laws of physics I don`t believe he can change the way people work. The idea of charging an EV from your solar PV system is possibly doable during mid summer in Australia. The problem is that most people use their cars during the day to commute to and from work, so their car will be in a car park. Not at home on charge.

These commuters are going to drive home and want to charge their EVs over night, when there is no solar generation. Imagine the spike in demand at around six o'clock each evening. millions of workers returning home, turning on the air conditioning, TV, boiling the kettle, cooking supper and charging their EVs. Fossil fuel power stations will have to go into overdrive, belching out CO2 and other emissions.

The grid in Australia already struggles to power air conditioners on hot days, grid outages due to this overloading are common.
Elon Musk and co may be visionaries and great salesmen but they clearly  haven`t thought this through.

The government and power companies are going to have to engage in some joined up thinking if they want to ever make this work.

Bob

ajaffa1

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #178 on: May 13, 2018, 11:52:50 PM »
Another issue that hasn`t been properly addressed is the longevity of lithium iron batteries. If you are anything like me you probably have a shed full of rechargeable power tools that no longer hold a charge. How many fast/slow charging cycles will the battery in a Telsa be able to handle? What will be the cost for replacements and what will this do to the resale value? Do they come with a meter so that someone buying a used Tesla can tell how long the batteries will last before they need replacement?

Too much hype, too many questions and not enough answers.

Bob

ajaffa1

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #179 on: May 14, 2018, 02:56:16 AM »
Hey Glort, great and detailed rant.
The only good thing about banging your head on a brick wall is that it`s nice when you stop. Trouble is that involves admitting defeat. I have no intention of being defeated by the sort of greedy witless wonders that now run the world.

Your predictions of impending insolvency for Tesla are well founded. No doubt Mr Musk will not be personally liable for any of the losses and will walk away a very wealth man. The shareholders will get shafted, suppliers will not get paid and the public purse will have to pay to clean up the mess.

With regards to TOU, the government will do whatever is likely to bring in the most revenue. Expect massive inflation of prices with annual increases dialled in every year for the next decade.
Hope you have become fully self sufficient before then.

I have been researching the old Edison batteries that last an eternity. Trouble is they are expensive and bulky. If I find time I would like to experiment with building my own. Nickel and iron are plentiful and not too pricey. Wonder how much storage one might get out of a cell the size of an IBC tank?

Bob