Author Topic: The future of electric Vehicles.  (Read 46427 times)

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3001
    • View Profile
Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #135 on: April 22, 2018, 12:56:22 AM »
The electric bike stuff is getting pretty impressive and affordable. 

I've thought about a way-behind-me electric pusher cart for a recumbent trike for when I'm not able to drive anymore; I can't walk as far as my mailbox which is 1/2 mile away.  No registration, no insurance needed in my state which wouldn't hurt either. 

The 2018 Subaru Impreza has a curb weight of around 3000 lbs- minus engine and tranny for electric conversion, but still, not a lightweight car. Maybe the Australia version is different?

« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 01:00:02 AM by BruceM »

buickanddeere

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 802
    • View Profile
Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #136 on: April 22, 2018, 06:26:06 AM »
  The best all around compromise to build an EV is the Chevy Bolt.
  The Leaf is a kid's go-kart made street legal, doesn't even have battery thermal regulation.
  As previously stated the Tesla has impressive highway miles at the expense of cost, size and weight. The energy required to accelerate and decelerate all that Tesla mass in stop and go around town driving makes it little better than the Bolt in range.

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3001
    • View Profile
Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #137 on: April 22, 2018, 04:17:18 PM »
I agree that for me, an electric pusher cart would be a serious technical challenge...but I suppose that would be part of the appeal- can it be done? (Which is a lot more fun when you have staff and budget not out of your own measly pocket.)  My shop at my first home here in the White Mountains was 24x24 feet and had a window mounted evaporative cooler for ventilation on the west wall, with my bench near the east.  The induction motor was a two speeed 1/2 hp.  I could only use it on low, and I put a loose wrap of grain oriented electrical steel (aka GOES) around the motor  to reduce the stray magnetic field by 50%.  Still, it was 4 microgauss at my workbench...the limit where I could work for a some hours and not have a whopping headache and MS flare up later.  So for the pusher cart I was thinking multiple insulated concentric cans of mumetal around the can type (not hub) motor (each a 50% reduction) and I'd have to do my own controller to reduce high frequency EMI.  Plastic optical fiber forward to throttle controls to avoid the antenna effect.  A 10 foot shaft from cart to rear of trike would likely be the minimum.  Motors are a bitch to shield, but the principles were developed in WWII to avoid magnetic sea mines.

I'm still ticked off that Mark Cherry's smartplugs didn't attract any interest besides myself and some DARPA one fuel forward program money.  A smartplug lets you convert any gas or propane engine to a low pressure diesel...  zero EMI from spark system or electronic injection.  I have a tough time with air cooled diesel noise and exhaust and would prefer a propane engine fueled car if I could get rid of the damned magneto-spark.  I did an alcohol fueled conversion of a Honda 2hp 4 cycle outboard to homemade smartplug that worked out OK, but that was possible because the catalytic reaction of methanol fuel and platinum is very strong so I could use a small RC glow plug in the smartplug chamber. Gas or propane fuel requires more platinum wire and more fuel/air flow over it per Mark's later patents.

PS  Glort was right on the mark on the used EV issue.  I read a couple articles and the 3 year depreciation is a horror show.  Interesting the article mentions the old Chevy Volt (not Bolt) as having very long lived batteries... like 300K miles. 

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109640_lessons-learned-from-early-electric-car-2011-nissan-leaf-at-90000-miles/page-2

In reading about the batteries in the Leaf, Tesla and Volt, as B&D noted, the Leaf has no cooling and the poor cell management we noted in another thread...thus so many used leaf battery modules for sale.  When crowing about how little owners pay for charging (via coal), they conveniently forget the ongoing battery replacement cost.  If your replacement battery (probably $800 in labor to get to it or more) is $40k and you get 80,000 miles from it, that's $0.50 a mile for battery replacement cost plus pennies per mile charging.   Petrol fuel cost at say 30 mpg at $3/gallon, that's $0.10 per mile for fuel.  So with 400K mile batteries at $40K replacement cost, you can just break even with a gas car.



 

« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 05:00:57 PM by BruceM »

LowGear

  • Casey
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2130
  • What? My diesel had fries for lunch?
    • View Profile
Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #138 on: April 22, 2018, 07:18:51 PM »
Quote
Most of them don't look like they would pass our ADR's, Australian Design Rules which cover vehicle design, standards and safety to permit vehicles to be road legal here.
The three wheel crowd are currently getting around this here in the states by getting them classified as motorcycles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMuubBNW4Tg

There is also some work being done on a new classification for light weight vehicles.  I sse mention of them but I can't find any links this morning.  I'm searching for "autocar" or something like that.

As for safety; you're just hanging your sweet ass out there a bit when you jump into one of these light weight units.  Single vehicle crashes might hold some advantages for them but the other irresistible force transportation devices could be really bad for the light weights.  They still look safer than two wheel units. 

Speaking of the two wheel units have you seen the stand alone two wheelers.  Wow.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Okf283Ct-NY  And electric too.

I apologize for getting us back on topic for a moment.  I'm thinking that we either get our heads out into the bright sunlight on personal transportation or dip the entire planet in concrete or tarmac.  I've always liked the "For Rent" and "For Sale" signs in downtown Seattle that over looked the freeways and also read: "If you lived here you'd already be home."

I still wonder if diesel will every really make a comeback.  Especially here in the states.  I like the power curve but the stuff that's too small to see or smell reports to really take away health outlooks.  The expected life of Americans has gone down for the last two years.  This is a really new wrinkle.  I think it has much more to do with stupid food and lifestyle choices than with dirty power generation but if we were making better food choices we'd probably also make better generation choices as well.  No, I'm not turning my back on Lister or Witte for that matter.  Extraordinary devices will always have a home here whether they were developed in 1920 or 2018.


« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 07:46:29 PM by LowGear »
NPR Tipper/Dump Truck
Kubota BX 2230
Witte BD Generator
SunnyBoy 6000 + SolarWorld 245

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3001
    • View Profile
Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #139 on: April 23, 2018, 05:36:49 AM »
Read an article on the Chevy Bolt.  Presently $15,700 for a replacement battery, the original is under warranty for 100K or 150K miles depending on state. So presently 16 cents a mile at the 100K mile figure.  If you make it to 200K that's 8 cents/mile.   Add charging power costs and it's still no bargain compared to a gas car's fuel at 10 cents a mile.  If the batteries come down in price dramatically, or last longer then it will catch on.

buickanddeere

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 802
    • View Profile
Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #140 on: April 23, 2018, 02:18:18 PM »
Bikes maybe an option in Australia but here not even snow tires make a bike rideable in blizzards .
 Regarding home builds, conversions and cottage industry EV’s . The percentage of the population that can spin wrenches and use a multimeter is steadily dwindling . Unless the vehicle manufacture is a large brand name with a dealership in every town . Who wants to risk being stuck without service support .
   Extreme mileage diesels in a micro vehicle at steady highway operation is one thing. It is simple enough to build a diesel with excellent efficiency operating at wide open throttle/full fuel rack at peak torque rpms . Fine for generators , irrigation pumps , marine propulsion and ploughing a thousand acres of corn field .   However operation of a light highway vehicle is every else than the conditions described above for high fuel efficiency and operation of tier IV emissions equipment .
   The EV is the environmentalist’s wet dream , charging on solar or wind turbines . Then again there is the real world where the greenie’s solution to all the world’s problems actually makes more trouble than it solves .

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3001
    • View Profile
Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #141 on: April 23, 2018, 04:53:49 PM »
I already have my last vehicle, and can't afford any new vehicle now but after crunching the numbers for operating cost it does appear they are selling these EVs based on a "green tinted illusion" at present.  Tesla had the right idea with the S and X models- a luxury status tech-toy for the wealthy. The model 3 is a status toy as well because it is in no way economical to own or operate.

The electricity prices here are low (coal - not accounting for the full health care costs and excess deaths and degradation of land from mining and  mercury and heavy metals spread in the downwind areas) compared to some places, about 12 cents a KWH, so for the Chevy Bolt at 3.5 miles/KWH that adds another 3.4 cents per mile to the battery replacement cost of 8 cents/mile (wildly optimistic 200K mile service life) and it is still over present fuel costs at 10 cents a mile. 

The ongoing battery replacement cost and cost/mile to recharge will be the figures to watch in the future.  Weight and aerodynamics will largely determine the car's efficiency for the latter as practical maximum efficiencies in electric motors and controllers have already been achieved. 

A battery weight and cost breakthrough is sorely needed. 
















LowGear

  • Casey
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2130
  • What? My diesel had fries for lunch?
    • View Profile
Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #142 on: April 23, 2018, 06:13:52 PM »
Happiness is a state of mind.

I guess we all are just a mass of stupids being lead around by one fake news story after another.  The move to electric everything is on the march.  I'm tagging along.

Cheers,
NPR Tipper/Dump Truck
Kubota BX 2230
Witte BD Generator
SunnyBoy 6000 + SolarWorld 245

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3001
    • View Profile
Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #143 on: April 23, 2018, 06:53:02 PM »
Nothing wrong with wanting an electric car-  as long as you know going in what the true economics of it are.  It will improve air quality in cities, relocating the pollution to the rural areas with the coal/oil/NG plant, with no net benefit (yet) for the planet. (I'm avoiding nuclear on purpose.) In countries and regions where the grid is mostly renewable power, electric cars will be a net gain for the planet.  Today in the US, where you do your own charging via PV, it's a net gain for the planet, though not yet for your pocketbook.

Carbon tax on fossil fuels, if done well, could shift the power mix in a direction which would benefit future generations but public trust in governments to do things well and fairly isn't at an all time high and next month's mortgage, insurance, car loan, credit card bill is the focus for most.  In the US whatever simplistic media message is repeated the most, wins.

 

« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 10:27:18 PM by BruceM »

LowGear

  • Casey
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2130
  • What? My diesel had fries for lunch?
    • View Profile
Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #144 on: April 23, 2018, 10:02:31 PM »
Okay, you forced it out of me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVter3vZMjA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ejSbXb44qo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVUASGY9HIc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQYqJb91MiQ  Not my best side.  This might be re-titled as "Where's all that smoke coming from?"  The reversing switch later caught on fire.
NPR Tipper/Dump Truck
Kubota BX 2230
Witte BD Generator
SunnyBoy 6000 + SolarWorld 245

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3001
    • View Profile
Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #145 on: April 23, 2018, 10:32:10 PM »
Very nice job on the electric conversion, Casey, and a great utility hauler for your nut farm. 
Are those (3) 12v batteries wet or AGM?  How are you charging?  How many watt motor and what kind?

Give us the full details, please!




LowGear

  • Casey
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2130
  • What? My diesel had fries for lunch?
    • View Profile
Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #146 on: April 24, 2018, 02:47:30 AM »
Thanks Bruce.  I'm upgrading to a more modern electronic voltage system (Not yet installed).  You don't really understand how much power there is in three old fashioned lead acid 12 volt batteries until you try to put out one of their modest fires. 

The power system is out of a 60s or 70s Cushman golf car(t).  Among purists they are cars.  Here's the data:

Electric Motor
   GE            DC Motor         5BC48JB248
   V36            A53
   Wind Series      GEJ312
Charger:
   Lester Electrical of Nebraska      

So far glort, including the smoke and fire dances, the main solenoid has taken care of everything.  The flashing light is to tell the operator that the thing is still on so he doesn't walk off only to return to a dead machine in the morning.  I tried to find a space ship sound out of old movies but had to go with the red light.

My neighbor that rides his golf car all over his farm has a weight issue and I've gotten my BMI down to 23 but that's too much information.  So maybe it isn't as good as it looks like for health reasons.  We recruit volunteers to work on the farm and a knowledgeable person could easily get transferred from pulling weeds to EV Engineer pretty easy with a simple skills test (soft pitch) .  We're booked through September at this time.  As many of you have realized I've got a touch of dementia so visitors really help me keep my mind.  Like this morning when I couldn't remember bird of paradise three different times.  I've got it now for a day or two so they are doing their job and having a great time here in Hawaii as well (second soft pitch). :)

Yup, that's part of my veg oil program from years gone by.  I just don't use enough diesel stuff to keep it alive.  One of this Summers tasks will be to get it to someone that will utilize it along with all the other bio-diesel crap (once you stop using that really neat stuff it transmigrates to "Crap").  An important thing to keep in mind is that giving away a project or selling a project is just like finishing the project as you get all that room back to put other really neat stuff before it becomes crap.  But I forget, Lister Engine Forum is a safe house for Horders.

Cheers,

Play nice others.
NPR Tipper/Dump Truck
Kubota BX 2230
Witte BD Generator
SunnyBoy 6000 + SolarWorld 245

LowGear

  • Casey
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2130
  • What? My diesel had fries for lunch?
    • View Profile
Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #147 on: April 24, 2018, 09:24:15 AM »
Good for you glort.  Admitting that there is a problem is the most common first step in solving it.  Whether you move onward to say "No thank you" or fall back on the ole buying better containers to store the crap in cycle knowing there is a problem is central to cure.

My name is Casey and I have no control on the amount of crap I've got stored and will probably never use.  Tobacco, alcohol or crap.  It's all connected in really subtle ways that are incredibly powerful.  The challenge is to replace the negative behaviors with positive ones like working on diesel engines, getting stuff to grow or having PV panels from one end of the yard to another.  (Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.)

Aloha,
NPR Tipper/Dump Truck
Kubota BX 2230
Witte BD Generator
SunnyBoy 6000 + SolarWorld 245

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3001
    • View Profile
Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #148 on: April 24, 2018, 03:00:07 PM »
Hey Casey,
Smart move to re-purpose the golf cart motor and controls.  Well done.
Didn't you also have another 36v project... a chainsaw?  Or was that someone else?



LowGear

  • Casey
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2130
  • What? My diesel had fries for lunch?
    • View Profile
Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #149 on: April 25, 2018, 05:25:01 PM »
I discussed putting an inverter on the ATV but 36 Volt inverters are expensive and my incredibly creative switching model was real expensive as well.  Another battery would almost require a trailer because of space. 

The next step is to install the newer electronic power components.
NPR Tipper/Dump Truck
Kubota BX 2230
Witte BD Generator
SunnyBoy 6000 + SolarWorld 245