Author Topic: The future of electric Vehicles.  (Read 41938 times)

buickanddeere

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #120 on: April 18, 2018, 05:45:02 AM »
   33,000 homes with 20Kw hr of batteries . Given an average of 12hr of daylight, with the first two hours after dawn and the last 2 hours prior to sunset . There is 8 hours of charge time and 16hrs of every 24hrs  reliant on batteries.
  How large are the roofs on these homes to support enough PV panels to power the home during the daylight loads of heating, cooling, cooking, entertainment, fridge, freezer etc plus charge 20Kw hr of batteries.
   Over the 16 hrs of non PV generation per day all those batteries can produce is 41 Mw of power.
    As there are losses in charging, discharging and conversion to AC, count on a loosing 20% or more of that 41Mw per hour over 16 hours. Also consider short winter days with the sun at a lower angle .
  As peak demand on the Australian utility grid is 47,000Mw..............good luck with your battery storage. That is 47 million homes . Actually 59 million as lithium batteries should not be operated from 0% to 100% to 0% .
   PV and batteries all sound well and good with noble goals etc. However the practical combination is nuclear baseload, PV daytime peaking with fossil carrying the morning and evening peaks when PV production is lost.     
   Liquid metal or molten salt fission reactors are the solution for utility grid power.
   btw what was the retail price of power prior to the subsidized solar and wind generation being built vs after ?   

LowGear

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #121 on: April 18, 2018, 06:14:26 PM »
Some of us believe and some do not.  Few things are static.  In 20 years when there could be some possibility of most cars being electric with charging required lots of other factors will have matured including our centralized grid program.  We may even pull our nuclear boats and ships into the center of cities to provide the much needed power for our armies of robots - domestic of course. 

Most of the naysayers I've encountered are often standing right smack dab in the middle of where I want to work.

At this time, for me, electric cars have some real advantages.  While I'm getting my 64 Morris back on the road I'll be happy with the dream car of my thirties and forties.  This years dream cars all are electrically powered.  What would I do if someone developed a petroleum based fuel cell motor?  Buy stock in Saudi Arabia of course.
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LowGear

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #122 on: April 19, 2018, 05:49:01 PM »
Quote
Buy stock in Saudi Arabia of course.

I never cease to be amazed at why Americans think all ( or the majority) of their oil comes from the Middle east??

A lot of stuff in this world amaze me.  Like taking jokes literally.  Not seeing the metaphor. 

Have a nice day.
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mikenash

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #123 on: April 19, 2018, 06:22:19 PM »
 plus one on that Casey

buickanddeere

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #124 on: April 20, 2018, 12:32:08 AM »

 Buy stock in Saudi Arabia of course.

I never cease to be amazed at why Americans think all ( or the majority) of their oil comes from the Middle east??

As I have tried to point out, at length, electric cars are not the issue. Finding the power to run them is.
I have a LOT of clear roof space and certainly more than the average home owner which I'm filling with panels . I couldn't put enough panels up to keep an electric car charged for my wife's daily Commute let alone charge my Daughters and my car.

Just like oil, when the demand for power goes up, so will the price.  Nuke is not the solution there because completely opposite to the touted " cheap" power, it is in fact the most expensive.

The few times Nuke powered ships have come into our harbors, there have been huge protests and outcrys. Trying to dock one permanently to supply power would be a completely impractical idea and get which ever gubbermint who tried it thrown out on their arses overnight pretty much.
[/quote

 Most of the protestors are bored people, that are not cold, sick or hungry with time on their hands . Hey are looking for drama , attention and meaning to their existence.
    These same malcontents need to spend A few months in nations where food, housing, healthcare , education, heating, cooling, transportation , communication , safety and security are luxuries .
 

buickanddeere

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #125 on: April 20, 2018, 12:38:23 AM »
There is a lot of oil produced in the Middle East however most is destined for Eastern Asia and Western Europe . The US is supplied mostly from Canada and  Venezuela.

mike90045

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #126 on: April 20, 2018, 02:46:01 AM »
Quote
......The few times Nuke powered ships have come into our harbors, there have been huge protests and outcrys. Trying to dock one permanently to supply power would be a completely impractical idea and get which ever gubbermint who tried it thrown out on their arses overnight pretty much. 

I'd bet the story would be different if 3/4 of the city had no power

buickanddeere

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #127 on: April 20, 2018, 12:04:05 PM »

I'm not sure it would.

What I do think would happen is there would be a huge outcry for more renewable investment and Subsidies for home batteries etc.
 Some people especially in the business sector would  accept a ship as a very temporary measure but I don't think that would change the overall protests and outcry.

The only thing nuke we have here is a reactor that makes Medical Isotopes and that isn't popular either.

 The trained mentality is already overwhelming renewable's and the gubberments here have been pushing that down our throats as well. Much was made of having to sign the paris agreement which is totally and utterly useless to us  but was hugely supported.  Whoever let things go to the point a nuke ship ( not that we have any) would have to be parked in the harbour to provide Power would only be heard of again when they went missing or their bodies washed up on the beach.

There was brief talk of putting a reactor out in the dessert a few years ago, a US company from memory wanted to do it but the population lit up about that so much even the nuke industry spin doctors ran away from it.

No power so we parked a nuke battleship in the harbour to provide it would still not go down well at all.
The only thing that would be accepted here is Solar, wind and you may get some Hydro past approval but that would be a job as well.

  I wonder how those in favour of wind, solar and demand coal fossil to be torn down. How do they accept the cost and pollution from fleets of standby/peaking medium diesel gensets ? Or are they so out of touch with reality that these social justice warriors and public . That they are either unaware of the diesel gensets or they believe anything is cleaner than coal ? 

LowGear

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #128 on: April 20, 2018, 08:19:18 PM »
Quote
The few times Nuke powered ships have come into our harbors, there have been huge protests and outcrys. Trying to dock one permanently to supply power would be a completely impractical idea and get which ever gubbermint who tried it thrown out on their arses overnight pretty much.

Right out of the Trump play book.  Neat stuff. 
     First step is to discount the adversary. 
     Second is to cherry pick or redirect their protest.  (These do nothing fat, dumb and happy thrill seekers were anti nuclear explosive devices rather than just nuclear power systems.)
     Third is to discount the adversary.
     Fourth is to redirect their message or point to failures of the proposed agenda.

Freedom of assembly is part of the US Constitution.  Protesting is also an important part of our cultural political heritage.  It's also an important part of governance for all systems of government. 

It's tricky projecting changes that represent the future while holding on to current attitudes and capacities.  As in glorts example of solar panels supplying all of the household needs.  His assertions seem absolutely valid given efficiencies of today's panels, automobiles and use patterns.  The rest of the world will change our attitudes and choices. 

We may start choosing to use vehicles more realistic to our needs.  Smaller vehicles for most trips.  Cars and sustainable power generators will become more efficient.  Car sharing and renting should become more realistic.

Isn't a great time to be alive.  All of these exciting choices coming to the front.  Choosing between a bit more cleaner living vs a lot more cleaner living on this planet.

Hey campers!  Pack it in - Pack it out.  Leave this campsite better than when you arrived.
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BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #129 on: April 20, 2018, 10:05:13 PM »
Fairly powerful electric bikes/trikes (3k and 6kw at 30 mph) get about 30-50 watt hr/mile.  Telsa model 3 is it's most efficient car so far, around 237 watt hr/mile.  So there is plenty of room for improvement if we stop thinking of cars as a penis substitute/military tank, and match our needed range to our actual driving needs. (Hauling more batteries adds weight, which means bigger motor, which means more batteries...)

I'm still pissed that the 50+ mpg 3 cylinder compact diesel cars that Europeans have had for 20 years don't exist in the US.




buickanddeere

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #130 on: April 21, 2018, 02:24:13 AM »
Tesla is a large vehicle to have enough internal volume for all the batteries . With wide  enough wheel track and long wheel base to carry all that battery weight with a low enough Center of gravity .

BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #131 on: April 21, 2018, 03:26:36 AM »
Agreed, the images I've seen of the Tesla show the entire floor pan filled with flat modules full of batteries.  The curb weight of the model S is 4400-4500 lbs depending on options.  The model S battery alone is 1200 lbs.

My first Toyota Corolla Sedan, 2 door around 1969 vintage had a curb weight of 1542 lbs. 

This lust for power and range in electrics is simply bad design to appease public insanity. The chassis, suspension, battery, and motor systems are WAY too heavy, with each adding more of the others.  Then tires, brakes, and wheels have be truck sized, and you must have power assisted steering and brakes.



 


 






 
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 03:42:32 AM by BruceM »

BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #132 on: April 21, 2018, 07:41:00 AM »
After looking at some weight figures for cars, it seems you're right, Glort.  Tesla just made a big heavy car.

The Nissan Leaf is 3500 lbs and it's battery weighs 480 lbs. 
The newly hatched Tesla model three curb weight is 3549 lbs...can't find the battery weight but it's allegedly 30% less than the S model 1200 lbs.

A step in the right direction but still double the weight of my late 60's Corolla .  Curb weights of new Corollas are now up from 1500 (1968) to 2850 (2018) lbs, engine from 50 to 140 hp. 






LowGear

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #133 on: April 21, 2018, 07:48:52 PM »
As a Elon fan I must admit I'm always surprised about how big the S and X unit are.  I too am tired of the "My zero to 60 number is better than yours."  However there is hope.  I like the new(ish) three wheel units that are just coming out.  Bringing into consideration the way cars are actually used VS the dreams of middle aged adolescents is a big step in the right direction.

https://www.arcimoto.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gei5LgVwV0E&t=5s

We all know these are niche cars but a refreshing direction for transportation to head.  The arcimoto would really work in Hawaii.  The Mecanica Solo might be more suited for the temporate zones.  And then there's this one that is a bit closer to the big peepee syndrome but would be a great way to commute to work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMWveqqMUY0 

and the Buck Rogers anwer to Edison 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTvhkRn_R9U

Food for thought.
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BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #134 on: April 21, 2018, 08:32:05 PM »
Interesting links Casey, thanks.  By some miracle we're back on topic.

The Edison 2 very light car seems by far and away the most well thought out design.  Good mileage at higher speed is highly dependent on air drag/aerodynamics.  So unless it is to be a city car at low speeds, it must be addressed. The emphasis on light weight helps everywhere else.  Their design team are all well seasoned engineers with serious experience in their respective areas.  Very impressive work. 

edison2.com