Author Topic: The future of electric Vehicles.  (Read 20105 times)

glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2018, 01:35:52 AM »
  The only problem with this sort of gushing journalism on lab results is that most people then think magical technical solutions are nearly here, and thus avoid doing what should be done today.

Got to say, I am totally disbelieving and unmoved by all these never ending reports of world changing technologies that are being worked on right now and are just around the corner.

There has been hundred's if not thousands of new revolutionary Engines, battery's, ways to produce fuel, safe/ clean nuke energy, aeroplanes that will have spacious lounges, bars and discos, flying cars and so it goes on and on and ......

Yes, new tech does come along but for every thing that makes it to market, there are about 10,000 reports of things you never see or hear of again.
When it hit the stores and I can buy it, I believe it. Until such time, sorry, I'll wait for it to be proven fact not more media/ investment driven hype.
You only ever get one side of the story, the side that is all singing dancing making you think the world is saved.

Just like the basis of this thread.  Sure electric cars can perform great, go good distances, can be recharged in tolerable times and don't have a tail pipe.
That's great when there is a small percentage on the roads, up scaling their use to a significant proportion brings on a lot of problems they don't ever talk about. Have a heap of these things all at a point trying to refuel and there is problems. Lots of problems. The Vehicle may not have a tail pipe but the power station has a huge Chimney spewing out the emissions you were trying to avoid. They can crap on all they like about renewable power but thats a very minor part of the power generation in all but a very small amount of countries like Norway where they are all Hydro. It's going to take many decades to get the grid up to the capacity it would need to provide power for the transport fleet and would have to be upsized significantly over that to allow for future growth as well. Would seem to me to be bit of a case of chasing your tail and never catching up.

Really electrics are no different to me Using veg oil only have more drawbacks.  When there is a handful of nutters like me doing Veg, not a worry. We save fossil fuel, have low emissions, can get all the fuel we want nearly anywhere we go and it's all good and well. Put even 20K vegmobiles on the road and you have a whole heap of issues now.

People do like to kid themselves. Sorry to go on about it but the green movement is the worst.  the spin doctoring they profess and the blind ignorance to obvious fact and logic in order to have a one minded agenda to promote their cause is shocking.  Unfortunately they don't seem to realise the ones and the thing they hurt most is themselves and their cause.

There is always something new and wonderful around the corner no matter what form of media you see.
Until I can get it myself, to me now it's all just more hype and vaporware.

glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2018, 01:43:20 AM »

The flip side of this, of course, is the losses become significant with long distance. Getting power from Australia to the UK, for example, you'd lose most of it (I hesitate to say 99%, but I bet it'd be around that) in transmission losses - aka heat.

Essentially Ade, You would be criss crossing the oceans with electrical heater elements. Not completely efficient ones but good enough.

Imagine the outcry if you raised the ocean temp ( or they modelled you would) by 0.0000000023%. The do do-gooders would be rioting in the streets.

In your example, I'd say the land mass of Oz when planted with panels could carry the needs of the UK and the isles with power.  We have the space and the weather.  When the sun sets here and we want the power back, it would probably not be possible to return the favour. Much less land, much less favourable weather.  If we look at supplying the US when the sun goes down there...... We are going to have to cover ALL of oz and a few other places to do that!

The energy problem is not at all an easy one to solve.

ajaffa1

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2018, 04:12:42 AM »
I`m not convinced by the argument that one would loose most of the electrical energy in transit. In the UK they had a national grid system which transmitted power at 450,000 volts through overhead aluminium cables. At that sort of voltage the current is minimal so the heat generated in the cables is also minimal. They also built an undersea link to Europe and generated power is imported/exported at will.

I guess the problem with any system like this is how do you meter it, imagine the chaos if you had to pay your daytime electric bill to a local service provider but your night time bill to the USA or some African business. The yanks are always banging on about the free market economy but I`m pretty sure they would want to own the whole thing and reap the financial benefits. Building globally sensitive infrastructure in under developed countries also has pitfalls, lack of local skilled workers, the threat of military conflict and terrorism spring to mind.

I believe that the best way forward for electricity generation is small localised production using whatever resources are locally available. Keeps the greedy, corrupt and plain stupid out of the equation.

Bob

glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2018, 09:55:53 AM »
The beauty of these discussions is the curiosity they raise and what you learn from them.
I did some looking and learned a lot on this one.

In the UK they had a national grid system which transmitted power at 450,000 volts through overhead aluminium cables.

I will admit, I was a bit sus on 450KV.  Your cars spark plugs fire at 20 to 50Kv.
Seems though the upper limit for power transmission is 765KV. A biblical number but one which makes 450kV seem conservative.


 
Quote
At that sort of voltage the current is minimal so the heat generated in the cables is also minimal. They also built an undersea link to Europe and generated power is imported/exported at will.

Not quite. from what I found they are still pushing  in units of 1000MW so even broken down, it's still a ship load of current.

The other thing I found suggested that 2000KM seemed to be about the practical limit for power transmission at 765Kv.
Something else I found agreed with this by saying for every 100 Miles you transmit power at 765KV and 1000MW ( the most practical and economical unit) you loose between 1.1 and .5%.
 Given that NZ is over 2000KM away from Oz as the crow flies and I imagine even on the sea floor there would be obstacles and terrain the cable had to go over and down again, that distance would be probably getting to 2400Km minimum.

Given this, the idea of transporting power from one side of the earth to the other is impractical from an engineering POV if not a cost one.
Of course then you have again the problem of powering a Huge land mass like the Americas/ Canada from everywhere else on the other side of the globe which would be all much smaller. 

[/quote] the threat of military conflict and terrorism spring to mind.[/quote]

I don't imagine it would be all that hard to find an undersea cable. The sea is probably not all that deep all the way either and certainly not beyond dropping something down to it.  I would further thing that all you'd really have to do is break through the insulation and it would cause significant problems and power loss.



Quote
I believe that the best way forward for electricity generation is small localised production using whatever resources are locally available.

I think this could certainly be a help but is also fraught with danger.  When the sun don't shine or the wind don't blow you are in trouble is you don't have a regular supply from a power station.

THAT SAID......
In places like Oz where there is a lot of sunshine and people can make good power ( did over 40 KWh myself today and I only have about 9.5Kw of panels hooked up atm) the generation like that can take a LOT of load off the grid. No, can't do it every day but the days you can are a bonus.

Quote
Keeps the greedy, corrupt and plain stupid out of the equation.

Not really Bob, I'm afraid they are already well ahead of you mate.
On most of the eastern seaboard it's illegal to have anything over a 5 KW inverter installed if you are on single phase power. If you are on 3 phase, you can pump back what you like. The stupidity is, 3 phase runs past everyones house and they alternate what phase they put each house on in order to balance the load.  Don't matter if you are pumping 10 KW back into the grid because the guy next door can be doing it too and he'll be on another phase and the guy on the other side will be on the 3rd leg.

It's just another load of crap to stop you being independent and them not making enough money from you. If it were about renewable energy and savng the planet and all that crap, they would be encouraging you to put panels on your roof. To say if everyone did it is another insult to ones intelligence.
If the grid is set up so all the houses in the street can pull power, then obviously the capacity to send it back is there too.
Now while all the houses in the street may be power positive instead of negative, a whole load of places that don't have panels are not too far away.
Couple of KM from me there is a huge nursing home. No panels there and they have sub stations out the front to supply all the residences in the complex.
Couple more KM down the road is the shopping centre. again, no panels and 90o the other way, is the industrial area with large factories and heavy industry.  That area alone would suck up all the power quite happily from every home in a 10 KM radius.

On the nice sunny days the Power station can idle down and minimise all that co32 the plants love and which makes no difference to the globull air quality. When it's not, we can crank them up and keep the lights on knowing we have mad a great improvement in what we used to emit and be satisfied.

I agree 100% with the local Idea but I'm sorry Bob, I think the only way to keep the corrupt and greedy away is to be completely off grid.
.... And when too many people go that route, watch the new taxes and annual inspections and other revenue raising crap come into it.

I have to have a " Licence" to run the septic for my shitter. Imagine when everyone wants to look after their own power!!

When I get in office, I'll have gubbermint provided Listers and Panels for everyone.
Fixed!

buickanddeere

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2018, 03:20:22 PM »
If the power station is idled down during the daytime when the power prices are the highest . How does the power station pay itís bills and mortgage if it isnMt selling power . Power prices do not pay the  power plantís bills  at night and on weekends when there is a glut of power .
   For utilities with nuclear base load generation . What are you going to due with the surplus power on weekend days and daytime during the spring and fall when demand is reduced as here are neither AC or heating loads on the utility grid .
   For those that donít know . Nuclear power plants by their nature operate at 100% power 24/7 for months at a time . You just donít yank the throttle lever back on a nuclear unit to load follow .
  That said some plants try and have to work around flux tilts in the reactor core . The chance
If unit upset and trip due to xenon-135 poisoning if power is run back to fast and too far . The delay in Xenon-135 production makes reactor power control more complex due to the delay and having to maintain enough positive ďKĒ .
   Other nuclear power plants keep reactor power up but blow steam to the condensers which is wasteful and causes wear condenser wear as most condenser heat exchangers were no designed for prolonged impact of high velocity and high temperature steam.
   If you want backup to wind and power , be ready to foot the bill for a fossil power plant to sit idle . And be ready to foot the bill for the high subsidized price of wind or solar power .
   As for Ontario. The rate payer funds the utility getting rid of excess daytime and weekend power by PAYING New York and Michigan to TAKE the excess power . Google how many billion Ontario has paid to do such over the years .

buickanddeere

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2018, 04:05:46 PM »
EVs and green energy ? It has pretty well been covered . The voting public that doesnít know anything technical and who have been convinced by repetition that CO2 is poison. Their guilt is absolved if they vote for EVís and green energy .
    Professionally and perpetually irritated social justice warriers  have something to scream about .
   The politicians like EVís and green energy as it obtains votes and kick backs under the table from contractors .
   Contractors and industry like the $$$ made tearing down fossil plants and building green energy .
    The wealthy ruling class is making $$$ with green energy subsidies . And they have bought coal mines knowing that power demands will cause a demand for coal someday . Plus $$$ made as their companies charge for getting rid of fossil , charge to build green and later again charge as they build fossil in the future .

LowGear

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2018, 05:50:49 PM »
The big three. 

1)  Poop

2)  Piss

3)  CO2

Goodbye waste.  Ready for the new stuff.

The next step - electric cars.  What could be more rational.

Cheers
NPR Tipper/Dump Truck
Kubota BX 2230
Witte BD Generator
SunnyBoy 6000 + SolarWorld 245

BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2018, 05:57:29 PM »
Lets all get mad at other people who direct their emotionally driven decisions (the only kind made by humans) towards "saving the planet".   

Oh wait, that might be somewhat based on a global scientific consensus.  Let's just ignore that.

Seriously, my concern about electric cars is the concern for human health from every increasing levels of EMFs.  Home EMF levels have dramatically raised due to cellular/WIFI and general wireless use, plus the insidious increase of poor quality switching power supplies in lighting, appliances and electronics.  This on top of the technical blunder of typical WYE system power grounding practice which puts 25% of the return current in the earth and aquifers and lack of maintenance of power lines with arcing on loose line hardware (from induced voltages near lines). Then lets add home power grid tie inverters with almost no filtration or EMI control to further radiate from the home wiring while the sun shines...while continuing to build homes with unshielded home wiring.  Lets ignore the increasing numbers of scientists and doctors warning that EMFs are a serious health problem. 

It's quite possible that we are ignorant enough to try to solve one serious problem with a solution even more damaging.





« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 06:14:39 PM by BruceM »

glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2018, 02:20:03 AM »
If the power station is idled down during the daytime when the power prices are the highest . How does the power station pay itís bills and mortgage if it isnMt selling power .

Nuclear power plants by their nature operate at 100% power 24/7 for months at a time . You just donít yank the throttle lever back on a nuclear unit to load follow .

You are trying to defend high power prices and Nuke power plants. Sounds a lot to me like you have vested interests.
Let me take a wild guess here, You work in the power industry.... in a nuke Plant.

If that's the case, you'll understand if I take your comments with a bag of salt.
The power industry here represent and regularly demonstrate every example of big business greed, lack of concern for anything but their own self interests, and in basic terms, are a pack of corporate mongerals.

There is a BIG difference between making a profit and holding everyone to randsom when making HUGE profits and trying every dirty and deceptive trick in the book to make more.  They HAVE here used High consumption as an excuse to hike prices, they have used low consumption as an excuse to hike prices. They claimed increasing demand as a reason that people NEEDED to pay more for power when they let their infrastructure get to a dangerous point of collapse and conned the gubbermint into bailing them out. When they got things in order and demand had fallen because of the uptake of solar they pushed for to keep them afloat when they were sinking and take the pressure off then then claimed prices had to go up further because they were now not selling as much power.  This isn't heresay, it's documented FACT. I have read the submissions to gubbermint to get their rises approved... not that they would take much with the pollies in their pockets.

It's not my concern to worry about these entitys profits. There is no chance of them becoming unprofitable, they post profits of hundreds of millions per quarter. And the pay laughably low tax rates on that further sticking it to their  customers and society in general.

As far nuke, that could be the greatest evil in the world today. There is NO justification for it and the claims of clean power are complete and utter bullshit. Anything that produces the most deadly, long lasting harmful waste on the planet is NOT clean and anyone that claims it is ought to be belted in the head with a shovel for their lies, ignorance or both. Thank God we don't have any here but in the grand scheme of things, we are probably being poisoned like the rest of the world from Fukushima right now and will be forever more.

If an intelligent species ever did land on this blue ball and learn about nuke power, they would wonder how any society could be so stupid as to poison themselves with this garbage and if they were fair and just, they would eliminate any and all behind it and whom allowed it.

I am pretty sure that nuke powerplants can be throttled to limited capacitys. The fact they may not be is probably more to do again with corprate greed and BS excuses that anything else.  They may take many hours or a day to change output for all I know but there is no way they HAVE to be run full tilt all the time.  In any case, if they are not suitable for the demands of the grid and the job they need to do, shut the things down.  They are the most dangerous, polluting and expensive form of power in use so any other alternative is superior.

Surprisingly, I do completely agree with you on your comments about Ev's and green energy. Mostly.
Still being the power industry, it is rotten and corrupt to the core and beyond but If utilised properly, say with Clean Coal power generation which can be throttled and still turn a profit, green power has a definate place.

It is ironic the power industry and those that largely oppose it, the green movement have a fundamental core similarity, they want it ALL their own way.
Power industry do not anyone to have panels on their roof and miss out on making every cent they can. Green washed aren't content to make improvements and have some  green options supplementing traditional ones to give the best and most stable result, they want everything to be green, NOW, and lets deny and hide the problems that ideal causes.

Here in Oz we have lots of sun and NO nuke power stations that can't be throttled. The coal stations we have that supplement things like Hydro, solar and wind, ( loathe as I am to credit the 2 latter) can be adapted to demand are that is done daily and as a matter of course. There is no reason why people can't put all the solar they can on their roofs, particularly in teh citys where demand is highest, to supplement the coal fired stations which CAN be idled  with the only limitation being outright greed of the operators.

Solar and wind is NOT a viable option and wont be for decades to come, if ever.
The logical thing to do would be to use the best of all options available and put greed and revenue aside and put the well being of the planet and all whom infect it first.

Corporates and Gubbermints won't allow that though, anything that cots them a cent in revenue is dissuaded with any face saving excuse it can insult people with.

glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2018, 02:42:00 AM »
It's quite possible that we are ignorant enough to try to solve one serious problem with a solution even more damaging.

Possible??
It's clearly demonstrable! Over and over and over again! Endlessly!
I'll give the example I just mentioned, Nuclear Power generation and leave it at that.

You, as usual, raise excellent and not often if ever thought of points.
I know beans about EMF but I can tell you, when we were looking at new homes last year, the ones anywhere near HV power lines we drove straight past.  Also passed one up that would have been perfect bar the fact it was right next to a water resivour tank  that had a huge Mobile phone tower also in the reserve. Water tank didn't worry in the slightest but the phone tower was a complete deal breaker.

I probably expose myself to more than my fair share of EMF in my ignorance about it but I'm not so stupid to ignore the glaringingly obvious.
People refute the existence of EMF but I have seen people standing under towers with Fluro light tubes that glow and that tells me there is something there and it's significant.

As for your comment on shielded wiring, could you link to something that one could use to sheild wiring in the home?
I can't ever remember seeing it listed for sale at any eelectrical place and don't have any idea what it would actually look like.  I remember as a kid the wiring in my grandparents place was all cloth covered in steel conduit.  An obvious hazzard in one way but perhaps with positive outcomes in another. Of course back then you could count the electrical appliances on one hand in the entire home that were permanent fixtures as against an electric frypan or drill that was used when required then put away.

Also with shielding, in a basic form, If one were to enclose everything in a steel box as fasr as say GTI',s breakers etc or appliance like computers, does a steel box essential ( apart from power cords) stop EMF? When my daughter was younger I made a " bed" fpr her phone to go in out of an old metal Biscuit tin with a lid.  Stopped the bastard going off all the time when the other kids sent some world stopping message about who said what to who at school today. Worked for a while till she worked out when she pulled the thing out of a morning there were no notifications and then the thing went nuts with messages sent hours ago.

I can well imagine that EMF shielding on electric cars would not be given a thought other than to dismiss it. I can also imagine being in that faraday cage
mobile steel box with the EMF would be essentially like being in a microwave with lots of the radiation bouncing around. Put a metal film tint on the windows and you could help keep it all in and concentrated even more!

Combining your concerns with electrics and my own, I wonder how much the elvesl of EMF would increase with the amount of power required to increase in the grid and in power lines running through the streets etc to power the vehicle fleet if it were all or majorly running of electricity?
My guess would be that increasing the power supply by 4 to 5 Times what it is now would not increase the EMF at the same rate but rather quite exponentially.

BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2018, 06:21:13 AM »
Increasing the load in a Wye served neighborhood in countries with split phase Wye single phase power does increase magnetic fields.  During peak load periods, ELF magnetic field levels are typically 4x the off peak.  I'm not sure how that will affect things in Australia as I don't know your power distribution and grounding practice there.  If you are transformer isolated, no worries.  If they are hard grounding on conductor in multiple places and jumping it around the transformers, you're screwed.

ELF magnetic fields penetrate almost anything.  The magnetic flux can be redirected through mild steel to a small degree (50% reduction inside a car, 60-70% in a heavy walled water pressure tank.  Grain oriented silicon steel (GOES) or mu-metals (specially annealed high nickel alloys) are much more effective, but it takes multiple isolated layers, each worth about 50% reduction.
You can't practically shield a home from these, nor can you practically actively cancel it, as that introduces higher frequencies which are even more problematic. 

Electric fields from home wiring are readily shielded by EMT conduit with compression fittings which is sold in every electrical supply store, but is never used in homes.  Foil or conductive paint can be used with far less effectiveness.

A general principal in EMC, the engineering field addressing EMI, shielding, etc. is that solving EMI problems is best and most cheaply done by mitigating it during design and development, at the source.  Trying to bandaid the problem after the fact by add on filtering and shielding is far less effective and far more expensive.  In the home, the worst sources of magnetic fields, and EMI are most commonly ALL YOUR OWN FAULT, controlled entirely by you.  Just looking at one component, radio/microwaves, applying some basic knowledge of all radio wave propagation helps immensely.  All radio waves propagate with signal strength falling off with square of the distance.  So complaining about cell towers within a mile of the home (shown over and over to cause problems with depression, anxiety, insomnia, in part from elevated cortisol levels, a marker of stress shown to be affected by radio waves)  is rather foolish when holding a cell phone or using wireless phones and WIFI in the home, often less than 10 feet away.  Yes, the 1/4 watt transmitter at 10 feet is much worse than the 500 watt transmitter two miles away.

A broadband RF meter such as those sold by Cornet is about $170 US, and will quickly help educate yourself in how you are damaging your health.  They have one which will also measure lower frequency electric and magnetic fields in the same meter.  When we all read the studies that have shown brain wave changes that last for hours, after using a cell phone for 15-20 minutes, and affects quality of sleep in sleep studies, what these independent researchers are saying in plain english is, you are screwing up your brain and your health by using these things, no matter how convenient you may think them.

It's relatively easy to make 10 fold improvements in the typical home EMF situation, and often 100 fold.  That's across the board, ELF magnetic fields, VLF-HF electric fields from home wiring, and radio/microwave levels.  Usually it's a matter of eliminating or moving things, correcting minor wiring errors and grounding issues.  (No, more hard grounding is NOT the solution.)  Shielding is only used rarely and mostly just for bedrooms, as for retrofits, it's quite costly. 


buickanddeere

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2018, 03:05:29 PM »
It's quite possible that we are ignorant enough to try to solve one serious problem with a solution even more damaging.

Possible??
It's clearly demonstrable! Over and over and over again! Endlessly!
I'll give the example I just mentioned, Nuclear Power generation and leave it at that.

You, as usual, raise excellent and not often if ever thought of points.
I know beans about EMF but I can tell you, when we were looking at new homes last year, the ones anywhere near HV power lines we drove straight past.  Also passed one up that would have been perfect bar the fact it was right next to a water resivour tank  that had a huge Mobile phone tower also in the reserve. Water tank didn't worry in the slightest but the phone tower was a complete deal breaker.

I probably expose myself to more than my fair share of EMF in my ignorance about it but I'm not so stupid to ignore the glaringingly obvious.
People refute the existence of EMF but I have seen people standing under towers with Fluro light tubes that glow and that tells me there is something there and it's significant.

As for your comment on shielded wiring, could you link to something that one could use to sheild wiring in the home?
I can't ever remember seeing it listed for sale at any eelectrical place and don't have any idea what it would actually look like.  I remember as a kid the wiring in my grandparents place was all cloth covered in steel conduit.  An obvious hazzard in one way but perhaps with positive outcomes in another. Of course back then you could count the electrical appliances on one hand in the entire home that were permanent fixtures as against an electric frypan or drill that was used when required then put away.

Also with shielding, in a basic form, If one were to enclose everything in a steel box as fasr as say GTI',s breakers etc or appliance like computers, does a steel box essential ( apart from power cords) stop EMF? When my daughter was younger I made a " bed" fpr her phone to go in out of an old metal Biscuit tin with a lid.  Stopped the bastard going off all the time when the other kids sent some world stopping message about who said what to who at school today. Worked for a while till she worked out when she pulled the thing out of a morning there were no notifications and then the thing went nuts with messages sent hours ago.

I can well imagine that EMF shielding on electric cars would not be given a thought other than to dismiss it. I can also imagine being in that faraday cage
mobile steel box with the EMF would be essentially like being in a microwave with lots of the radiation bouncing around. Put a metal film tint on the windows and you could help keep it all in and concentrated even more!

Combining your concerns with electrics and my own, I wonder how much the elvesl of EMF would increase with the amount of power required to increase in the grid and in power lines running through the streets etc to power the vehicle fleet if it were all or majorly running of electricity?
My guess would be that increasing the power supply by 4 to 5 Times what it is now would not increase the EMF at the same rate but rather quite exponentially.

Have you priced nuclear per Kwhr vs subsidized wind,subsidized  solar and the subsidized shall generate NG turbines ? Are you aware of how much the rate payer spends to pay the US to take surplus wind and solar power ? Do you not see the greed and  corruption in that?  With cheaper hydraulic and nuclear power being rejected and paying for more expensive wind, solar and gas .
   How would you be qualified to speak to anything regarding nuclear ?

buickanddeere

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2018, 03:13:20 PM »
Where is this terrible smokestack on EPA approved fossil plants ? With clean soft coal, improved burners , fast reaction CEMs , scrubbers, precipitors and injection systems . The only thing thing going up the stack is moisture, nitrogen and plant food .

BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2018, 05:01:39 PM »
Pretending nuclear isn't subsidized, and that coal is appropriate for new development is foolish but is right out the power industry propaganda.  The real cost of nuclear is being pushed onto your grandkids and great grandkids; there is no viable plan for the radioactive waste and the real downstream cost of decommissioning of old plants is still unknown.   Nor will any insurance company in the world insure a nuclear power plant.  No plant was ever built without gigantic overruns on cost and schedule. The rate and taxpayers foot the bill.  Right now we need our existing nuclear to keep us afloat but we ought to be pursuing solar with thermal storage and other renewables.

 As for coal- it is the perfect, stable, sequestered form of CO2.  What is the cost of relocating hundreds of millions of people from coastlines, and disruption of farming from climate change?  Most of the experts in the field around the world think it's way beyond serious, and military planners are assuming chaos will ensue as a result of disruption of food and water resources. "Clean coal" is a propaganda campaign just like the ones in the 60's for nuclear power- "too cheap to meter".

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/02/clean-coal-america-kemper-power-plant

But hey, let's believe power company propaganda instead.  Just because all of their previous predictions where utterly wrong, costing rate payers a fortune, doesn't mean we can't cling to their fantasy. 












glort

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2018, 10:53:53 AM »

Sorry Bruce but this one we will disagree on.

I will never see the globull warming thing as anything but a money maker.  There is ALWAYS a price connected with saving the environment etc and anything that can be done and effective is ignored.  As I mentioned, if it were about saving the planet, there wouldn't be the restrictions and limitations on private solar. It would be encouraged not discouraged. Anything effective in the saving the planet initiative and that is pushed always has a high cost and good returns for big biz and gubbermints.

The predictions of the climate change scientists and proponents have always failed and had to be revised over and over.

It's going to take a LOT for me to give it all any credibility  and the first thing will be to put the cause they go on so much about before profits.