Author Topic: The future of electric Vehicles.  (Read 40530 times)

LowGear

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #255 on: July 08, 2018, 05:50:18 PM »
My father always questioned the conservation mantra of not too many years ago.  "Only YOU can prevent forest fires!"  He pointed out lightening strikes.  The part of the mantra that he didn't see was that only people can modify their behavior to reduce the number of forest fires.  We do many activities that reduce the consequences of humans being on the planet.  Natural phenomena does not release us from intelligent, responsible or moral behavior.  Back to the camp site.
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32 coupe

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #256 on: July 08, 2018, 07:28:56 PM »
Bruce,
"Freon"  being phased out in my opinion has been a joke.

R22  was supposed to be out 20 years ago. But it is still available. Can be purchased at
any AC supply house. You can't  buy R22 equipment any more but the gas is still out there.

R22 is not supposed to be manufactured now but look on line and you will see the Chinese
are manufacturing TONS of the stuff as well as exporting it every day.
I saw a documentary not to long ago about a man who went to China, saw it being made,
and asked about importing to the US. The response was that China could not directly import
into the US but by shipping through other countries they could eventually get it into the country.

It will eventually go away but I would.be surprised if it were any time soon.

Have you seen the replacement for 134a in cars ? That is scary stuff that is flammable !
Mercedes has been fighting it in court for a number of years. But it is here in a few cars
and widely used in europe. At $800 for a 10 pound jug it's going to be very costly for
consumers.

R410 was supposed to be the "end all" for R22 but it has come under attack as of
late and I can see another battle brewing over that.

No matter what happens it will only be more expense for the consumer.



Gary



« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 07:42:27 PM by 32 coupe »
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BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #257 on: July 08, 2018, 11:04:59 PM »
As badly implemented as it was, the improvement in the arctic ozone hole is measurable. I think you've missed the forest for the trees-  vast amounts of R12 was never put in service, with only mild disruption.  Perfection isn't in the available range of choices for any human activity, certainly not for regulations. 

The stumble ahead continues as HFC's that had less impact on ozone have been found to be highly effective as greenhouse gasses. 

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/epa-bans-greenhouse-gas-19197

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« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 11:15:15 PM by BruceM »

broncodriver99

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #258 on: July 09, 2018, 01:12:54 AM »
"Freon" is a trade name copyrighted by Chemours/Dupont. There are many other names used.

R22 was supposed to be out 20 years ago. But it is still available. Can be purchased at
any AC supply house. You can't  buy R22 equipment any more but the gas is still out there.

R22 is not supposed to be manufactured now

It will eventually go away but I would.be surprised if it were any time soon.

R410 was supposed to be the "end all" for R22 but it has come under attack as of
late and I can see another battle brewing over that.

No matter what happens it will only be more expense for the consumer.

R-22 is not officially slated to be phased out in the US until Jan. 1, 2020. It was allowed in new equipment until 2010. In 2020, production of new R-22 ends. Anything already manufactured and in the distribution network will still be available as well as recycled refrigerant. R-22 will be around for the next 20 years. The amount of equipment that uses R-22 is astounding. One can still buy virgin R-12 if there is a need, it is just very expensive.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 01:20:57 AM by broncodriver99 »

broncodriver99

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #259 on: July 09, 2018, 01:13:27 AM »
CFC's were the first to be banned and are the ones that have been attributed with causing damage to the ozone layer. It was found that the chlorine atoms were the culprit. They were replaced with HCFC's(R-22 being one) which have a lower ozone depletion potential but still have a high potential as a greenhouse gas. HCFC's have been replaced with HFC's(R-134a, R-404a, R-410A). HFC's have almost zero ozone depletion potential but have a high greenhouse gas potential. Most HFC's have a higher greenhouse gas value than R-22. HFC's also take much longer to break down in the atmosphere than HCFC's so their greenhouse potential sticks around longer. Now there is a big push to replace HFC's with HC (hydrocarbon) refrigerants, R-290 is the most widely used and is what most manufacturers are shifting to as a replacement for R-134a. R-290 is a high grade of propane. It has been in use for a long time in specialty equipment but is now becoming the standard in consumer appliances and small systems with a small refrigerant charge and therefore explosion risk is minimal.

A big problem with HFC's is that many are zeotropic meaning the compounds within the blend have different boiling points(called glide) and different leak rates. If a system using a zeotropic refrigerant suffers a leak and only part of the charge is lost the remaining refrigerant must be recovered and sent off for destruction and virgin refrigerant must be used to recharge the system. If one "tops" off the charge the pressures and temperatures become skewed and the equipment will likely not operate correctly.

Another big problem with HFC's is the oil that is required. They use a very high grade of POE oil that is extremely sensitive to moisture. It also has a tendency to plate out forming a powdery substance that blocks capillary tubes and TXV's when exposed to high condensing temperatures. This usually burns the compressor up causing a piece of equipment to end up in the landfill. R-410a has the added problem of running very high discharge pressure. There are a lot of leak failures in R-410a equipment and all of the major manufacturers have had a hard time with ruptured coils. So, even though R-410a might be marginally better for the atmosphere much more of it is making it's way into the atmosphere due to leaking equipment because of the higher pressures.

I can say that equipment using CFC's and HCFC's seems to last longer with much less repair being required. Some of this may be due in part to the recent onslaught of cheaply built imported equipment but the inherent problems with HFC's definitely cause a lot more service problems than CFC's and HCFC's ever had. The question is, is the environment better off with refrigerants that are marginally better for the atmosphere but have inherent problems that cause a lot of equipment to be land filled prematurely due to failure? If you add in the energy and resources used to manufacture equipment to replace the large numbers that fail prematurely are HFC's really better for the environment?

It will be interesting to see how the HC's do. One advantage to the new HC refrigerants is that manufacturers can return to using mineral oil like CFC and HCFC systems and get away from POE oil and it's issues. I would like to see a lot more large scale systems going back to ammonia chiller systems as they are extremely efficient and ammonia being naturally occurring has near zero effect on the atmosphere.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 01:45:35 AM by broncodriver99 »

BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #260 on: July 09, 2018, 06:26:59 AM »
Thanks for the explaination on developments in HC, HCFC's, etc, broncodriver. Much appreciated.  Given the alternatives I agree that HC looks the way to go.  Are you familiar with lithium bromide refrigeration systems?  They have been used for solar (non-PV) driven refrigeration on commercial scale but not residential.  I read an article mentioning some technical challenges with corrosion and materials compatibility.  It seemed like a good solution for building cooling for the lower deserts of AZ...but has not caught on, and I wondered why.

broncodriver99

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #261 on: July 09, 2018, 03:45:57 PM »
Are you familiar with lithium bromide refrigeration systems?  They have been used for solar (non-PV) driven refrigeration on commercial scale but not residential.  I read an article mentioning some technical challenges with corrosion and materials compatibility.  It seemed like a good solution for building cooling for the lower deserts of AZ...but has not caught on, and I wondered why.

Yes, they are an absorption type system and have been around since the 1950's. Lithium Bromide is an alternative to the Ammonia/Hydrogen absorption process. Absorption systems are Very interesting as they use waste heat or collected heat to generate a cooling process. The RV refrigerator is an example of an absorption system though it uses ammonia, hydrogen, and water. The lithium bromide "brine" that is used in the absorption process is very corrosive and requires a lot of maintenance to maintain proper operation. There is some new development going on with absorption systems but unless one has a lot of waste heat on hand they aren't practical as the compression refrigeration system is much cheaper and more efficient. There used to be a lot of "gas" powered air conditioning systems in the mid-west and on the west coast. They were absorption systems powered by NG/LPG. They were handy where electricity prices were higher than gas prices or electrical service was limited.  The company that made them halted production sometime in the '80's. One reason absorption systems may be slow to catch on in the desert is that most systems over a few tons of capacity are water cooled.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 03:50:55 PM by broncodriver99 »

BruceM

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #262 on: July 09, 2018, 04:29:47 PM »
I  recall that the lithium bromide systems could operate on lower temperatures- so that a solar hot water loop with say 85% efficiency panels could be used instead of PV (16%).  The Audobon Debs Park building outside LA uses lithium bromide/solar hot water system for cooling; it uses 200 degree F water to operate.

I have a propane/ammonia  operated refrigerator/freezer. It takes a big burden off my battery bank. I modified it to be sealed combustion.  The complete absence of noise is blissful.  I just wish it was dual heat source so it could be PV heated during the day.  It uses about $15/mo worth of propane.  It's in a separate gas kitchen with good outdoor cross ventilation via windows. The gas kitchen is insulated from the rest of the house, so the waste heat doesn't heat the house in summer.  In the winter it heats that room.

buickanddeere

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #263 on: July 09, 2018, 06:04:21 PM »
Looked it up , excellent reading and very enlightening. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #264 on: July 09, 2018, 06:07:55 PM »
CO2 only makes up .1% to .2% of all the combined greenhouse gases . 300, 600 or 900ppm is not going to make a flea phart’s difference  in a wind storm. 
  If worried about iceberg calving off Antiartica . Have a look at the unprecentes volcanic activity occurring under the icesheet.

broncodriver99

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Re: The future of electric Vehicles.
« Reply #265 on: July 09, 2018, 06:57:28 PM »
........
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 02:49:27 PM by broncodriver99 »