Author Topic: Bearing analysis??  (Read 33011 times)

GuyFawkes

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Re: Bearing analysis??
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2006, 05:16:40 PM »

years ago i was trying to illustate why cleanliness is next to godliness in engine building and maintenance,

cleanliness IS godliness in engine building, so is attention to detail and understanding that there is a right way and every other way.

In my book I've never come across a motor so bad that any work needing doing on it was worth cutting corners on, I'll simply blow it up and scrap it in preference to doing a less than 100% job.
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Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Procrustes

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Re: Bearing analysis??
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2006, 05:28:48 PM »
That is very discouraging.

hotater

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Re: Bearing analysis??
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2006, 05:41:02 PM »
  The problem *I* have with *my* engine is not cronicled here for discouraging ANYbody from buying and enjoying a Lister(oid).  ITs' only meant for educational purposes and hopefully help others recognize a problem by having prior knowledge of it and hopefull, having a solution already found for it.

I'm a little discouraged because what was supposed to allow me to enjoy my REAL interest has been taken over by a demanding chunk of iron that seems determined to break my will before it quits for good. 

 It won't.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

cujet

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Re: Bearing analysis??
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2006, 07:15:34 PM »
Hotater and all,

While this is probably not the thread for Listeroid complaints, I did want to follow up on your statements.

You said:
"I'm a little discouraged because what was supposed to allow me to enjoy my REAL interest has been taken over by a demanding chunk of iron that seems determined to break my will before it quits for good."


AMEN!

I have found that this project consumes all my free time. I have also found, like you, that the reliability is not there. In fact, there are small Ebay sourced Yanmar and Kubota engines that would outlast the Listeroids hands down. And the prices are competitive. I hate to write this, but I truly feel I must. Utterpower's George is a very convincing author. He likes the Listeroids and it shows. However, the stuff he writes pushes the limits of what is accurate about these engines. Utterpower's website led me to believe that the work is easy, and these engines are quick to overhaul. That is totally not true. There is no way a quality overhaul can be done in an afternoon. In fact, my twin overhaul is going on 6 months, with many long days used up. Nothing is right with these engines as they come from India. And the lifespan is far shorter than the urban legend says it is.

I did a basic analysis on the benefits of Listeroid ownership. My conclusion is simply that they excell only for alternative fuels. In all other areas they fall far short. AND even the alternative fuels can be safely used in certain other diesels.

Chris
People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence

jimmer

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Re: Bearing analysis??
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2006, 07:38:47 PM »
Maybe we should also hear from those who are satisfied with their engines.

I only run mine 2-3 hours a day, but I have no complaints. It runs smooth (mounted on two wood beams), still seems tight and has not given me any real problems.

Let's hear it. Is the silent majority satisfied or dissatisfied with their engines?

jim

edited to add: I have a GM-90 8/1
« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 07:43:06 PM by jimmer »

hotater

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Re: Bearing analysis??
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2006, 08:11:28 PM »
Chris/cujet--

I had quite a bit of correspondance with George and Joel before leaping into the Lister pot.  I totally agree with George's assessment that the 'can be made to run long hours'.  What wasn't said, because at that time it wasn't known, is that it takes MORE work than the Lister Longivity CD said at that time.    :o

The sandy, dirty, poorly assembled and terribly painted  engine were already HERE and some of the short-comings had already been noted, studied, written about and a solution found.  Hopefully my long running hours has contributed to that knowlege base and maybe even some solutions found for problems that slowly develop.  Last week's rocker shaft block is a good example....if the end of the rocker shaft is moving when running, you WILL have problems with it.  Fix it now.

I think airing these problems out in a public forum does three things:
1) It lets people that want one know what they're likely getting into and what to watch out for.
2) It hopefully solves some issues that have already cropped up and saves some TIME for somebody else.
3) It lets the dealers and importers know what to look for and ask for next time to upgrade the product.

All three are good things, I think.

Satisfied with my engine??  You betcha!!  It's EXACTLY what I bought!!!  Is it perfect?  Hell no!  But by learning the mechanics and by studying the elegance of the design, and by seeing what shortcuts were taken in the interest of economy by the Indians, I've LEARNED more about engines than I ever thought possible......I did NOT know how a diesel engine worked until I bought the FuKing Listeroid!!  Now I *could* build one. 

 I can hardly wait to get an original here to fit up right.   You can BET I'd a screwed up an original without having the Indian clone to experiment on first.

7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

mobile_bob

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Re: Bearing analysis??
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2006, 08:14:11 PM »
i have to speak up here on a couple of subjects,
one being the listeroids in general,  the other being george at utterpower.

first of all these engines have to be looked at as an assembled kit, a 95% finished kit at best, that has
been hastily assembled at best, sloppily and dirty assembled at worst, and no way to tell for sure out of the crate.

these engines have to be torn down to every last piece, and thoroughly cleaned, inspected and blueprinted!

what i mean by this is to really tear them down completely, hot tank the parts, and then visually inspect every friggin part.

at a minimum i would do the following.

1. have the crankshaft finished properly, if need be reground to perfectly round, concentric and polished to a quality finish. this is not going to be done by most folks by hand, in an hour with the crank still in the block in most cases.

2. the oil system needs improvement, it need some form of filtration, and positive lube to all brgs, and a quality non detergent oil of the proper viscosity.

3. the cylinder bore must be rehoned to not only the correct crosshatch pattern but the proper finish, then "properly" cleaned
    the rings must be thoroughly inspected with high magnification to get good ones, and then gap them properly and install them properly( there is an up and a down side, don't trust the marks if they have them)

4. the lifters will have to be reground and polished, and the guide clearance will have to be made correct, the cam lobes should also be polished

5. the head will have to be made to be flat as well as the cylinder deck, either by scraping (not something most folks are going to either do or be able to do  well). also a proper valve job will need to be done, not just lapping them in.

6. the rocker system will have to be addressed for proper geometry, and polished out to work properly.

7. all brgs will have to be replaced with a good quality  brg (if such a thing exists in india) timken for the tapered and the best you can get for the plain brgs, the clearances will have to be verified by plastigage at a minimum.

8. the rod will need to be checked for being true, and hopefully in the twins they match in weight.

the list goes on and on,, but you get the idea.

the problem is most folks either don't understand the importance of the little details that have to be addressed to get the engine from 95% finish to that of an engine that is closer to 100% finished.

as the old saying goes "you get 90% of the result with 10% of the work, the final 10% of result will require 90% of the work"

if one is to run and depend on one of these engines long hours per day at near full load, then these concerns will have to be recognized and dealt with, if not you aint going to be happy.  

if on the other hand you only need a couple hours of run time every other day at part load, perhaps you can cut corners and get a few years out of the engine.

when taken in proper context these engines are a bargain, in that where else can you get a 95% engine for such a small amount of money? you certainly cant cast and machine these parts yourself for the money.

years ago i used to do alot of detroit work for the oil field, detroit diesel sold reman engines for the oil patch that had a 30 day warranty, you can bet they cut all the corners on these units, i have seen aweful shit done on these engines and sold in good faith as a replacement engine. they did things with those that you would not even think of doing on over the road trucks.  cut corners to cut cost, you get what you pay for.

now for george at utterpower

i have met george and find him to be a sincere man, yes he is a proponent of the listeroids, but..
he is clear about these engines being kit engines, i find alot of reference on his site to thise fact.
i don't think for a minute he would sell a guy anything unless he knew the guy understood what he was
getting into. if he had a doubt we would steer the guy away from using one.

when he says you can overhaul one in an afternoon, it is one that has been properly blueprinted to start with!
i have never known him to allude to the fact that one can take an engine out of the crate and overhaul it and put it in service in an afternoon.

once one of these engines has been properly rebuilt and run until the need for overhaul, i think one could do an overhaul on a 6/1 in an afternoon easy enough. but certainly not a dirty as delivered example.

if one does not want to go thru the trouble to do one properly or is unable to, then perhaps he should look into the yanmar, kubota, or whatever.

a good alternative is the isuzu, from a thermoking unit, these engines can be had cheap, overhaul cost isnt bad, hp is in the 25 hp class and they run at dual speed, either 1300rpm low or 2300 high.
they have full flow and bypass oil filtration, primary and secondary fuel filtration, excellent govenors, glowplug systems etc. and are made to run for thousands of hours.
you can pick one up in good running order for around 300 to 500 bucks, and they run fairly quietly.
they also have electric start, engine protection/shutdown systems, rubber motor mounts etc.

to recap, it comes down to pay me now or pay me later, if not in money certainly in time spent.

bob g

otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

jimmer

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Re: Bearing analysis??
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2006, 08:24:50 PM »
Well with all that being said....

I did not buy a kit, my dealer did not sell me a kit and I did not receive a kit.

I received an engine that with a few minor adjustments ran after I added oil and is still running.

jim

GuyFawkes

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Re: Bearing analysis??
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2006, 08:32:21 PM »

the problem is most folks either don't understand the importance of the little details that have to be addressed to get the engine from 95% finish to that of an engine that is closer to 100% finished.

as the old saying goes "you get 90% of the result with 10% of the work, the final 10% of result will require 90% of the work"

truest words on this site.
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Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Halfnuts

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Re: Bearing analysis??
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2006, 08:57:49 PM »
Hotater,

As I recall you said some time ago that your particular engine was known to be bad and (I think you said) Joel initially didn't want to sell it to you and warned you off because he knew that there were problems with it, or that batch, or something.  But you wanted it, understanding that you would have to do major work to get it right.  That being the case, isn't your engine possibly a worst-case?  For the sake of context, can you refresh our recollection?

Halfnuts

jimmer

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Re: Bearing analysis??
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2006, 09:03:34 PM »
I recently pulled the Listeroid's head and removed the piston and rod. Everything looked as it should.

I do plan on getting more that a few years out of my engine.

Maybe some of you have crap engines. What is the common denominator? Same brand? Same dealer?

I'll ask the same question I asked some time ago:

How do these companies stay in business selling a product that must be rebuilt before it can be used?


jim

Andre Blanchard

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Re: Bearing analysis??
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2006, 09:14:16 PM »

2. the oil system needs improvement, it need some form of filtration, and positive lube to all brgs, and a quality non detergent oil of the proper viscosity.


If you are cleaning all the junk out of the engine and adding a filtration system then why stick with a non detergent oil?
I would think that would be just asking for more sludge to settle out rather then get carried to the filter.
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Andre' B

mobile_bob

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Re: Bearing analysis??
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2006, 09:44:19 PM »
"If you are cleaning all the junk out of the engine and adding a filtration system then why stick with a non detergent oil?
I would think that would be just asking for more sludge to settle out rather then get carried to the filter."

because unless you have the means to install a fully pressurized lube system with a full flow filter, you will still have fine crap circulating thru the engine. this stuff needs to settle out.

i have seen the owner made filters that fit inside the engine cover, and don't get me wrong, i am sure they help alot, but
they will never do the job of a full flow filter, and will barely do the job of a bypass filter at best.
an improvment yes, good enough to run detergent oil, no in my opinion.

i know this is probably alot to ask, but i think i will make my 25/2 into a hybrid dry sump system, in that i will use a belt driven scavenge pump at least to circulate the oil thru a proper filter, and if possible direct feed it into the oil manifold.
perhaps a check vavle can be placed so as to keep the original pump in place to take over if the belt should fail.
here again, if the drive system is engineered right a belt drive pump should be very dependable.

for that matter a chain drive off the crank could be fitted, god knows they run forever on motorcycles with a bit of care, and the application wouldnt be as hostile an environment as a motorcycle.

if i can get 30 psi to all the brgs in my engine via a proper full flow filter, and a bypass filter, i would be thrilled.
at least then i know i have oil to everthing that needs it.

but then again i can be a bit overly sensitive to these things.

always details

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

hotater

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Re: Bearing analysis??
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2006, 09:51:35 PM »
jimmer---

They stay in business the same way anybody does...they offer product at a fair price.  I don't get mad at NAPA because the car wax won't shine itself!!  I understand that by buying car wax the 'work stage' has just begun.  You remember Heath Kits for radios?  Did you buy ready-built model airplanes, too?

In *my opinion*, anyone that runs ANY of the early Indian engines without a teardown ifirst is flirting with expensive noises.   :o
....AND, if a dealer says his imported engines don't *need* teardown first, be very wary.  Last week a 'dealer' said his engine had run 10,000 hours without breaking something.  I challenged that and would do it again.  The Indians may MAKE a 10K hour engine....they might even be imported to the U.S., but I haven't seen one, yet.

Listeroids are more like elk hunting--- LOTS of fun planning and getting there and hunting in the high country and just about time you think you're so tired of having fun you just can't STAND anymore....a dumb-ass elk gets shot and you've got a week of hard work getting him out!!   The Lister will wait until you have something else to do before screwing up!   ;D

Recap of one FuKing engine---  It was the last of several engines that came in at the bottom of the 'importer's learning curve'.  To George's immense credit, it was immediately seen that the engines were NOT 'ready to run out of the box' and the Lister Longivity CD was born.
 Mine was held back for spares and reference (to NEVER do THAT again).  It was exactly *right* for my budget but I had at talk Joel out of it instead of wait on a better engine.  I couldn't afford a better engine and a genhead, but I had the time and tools and the Interest  to tear into something I'd never seen before and try to 'make it right'.

I can't imagine a running  engine that could possibly be any worse.  There was sand stuck to the bottom of the piston, there was casting flash stopping up the cooling gallies in the head, there were loose taper pins holding the cam lobes on, one governor pivot was missing the cotter key....and ad nauseum.   There were things I couldn't see, too.  The bad idler gear the most notable....BUT everything has taught me something.

One of the primary things it's taught is how GOOD a dealer can be....NO BS, no delays, no excuses.  Just good service....along with a curiosity about the engines and how to make them better for the future.  If I was in the market for another 'roid I'd have bought one already from the same dealer.

I've seen pictures of J'Ksons right out of the crate and I've heard some wonderful things about them.  I think quality is going up as American patience runs out and the dealers get a handle on what to ask for!  How do you explain to the Indians that the engines are supposed to RUN a while.  Of course, that means prices will rise with quality

M. Bob--
  I've told gunmaking students for many years that the first line you lay out on a stock blank is as important to be 'right' as the last line of checkering you cut.  The difference is in the labor.  A bad line on a stock blank cost you a few minutes to make it right.  After you spend six months in finishing the job that last line of checkering can't be made straight if you cut it crooked....the job is scrap......or just another imperfect job, depending on how much of a perfectionist you are.  
   The PROBLEM is in what you charge for your work.  You can't get perfection pay for just another imperfect job.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

jimmer

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Re: Bearing analysis??
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2006, 10:04:57 PM »
jimmer---

They stay in business the same way anybody does...they offer product at a fair price.  I don't get mad at NAPA because the car wax won't shine itself!!  I understand that by buying car wax the 'work stage' has just begun.  You remember Heath Kits for radios?  Did you buy ready-built model airplanes, too?


Well I guess that makes sense to you 'cause I sure don't get it! The product they are offering is an engine to run, not a kit.

We hear over and over from a "few" on this forum; how 'bout some posts from the silent majority on this topic.

There must be others using these engines. Would anybody care to speak up?

jim