Author Topic: The twin build  (Read 14589 times)

38ac

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Re: The twin build
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2017, 01:54:17 PM »
 ;)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 07:23:47 PM by 38ac »
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Re: The twin build
« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2018, 12:35:26 AM »

The nostalgia factor....


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38ac

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Re: The twin build
« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2018, 12:53:36 AM »
 :)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 07:24:01 PM by 38ac »
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listard-jp2

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Re: The twin build
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2018, 07:48:09 AM »
Lister took a cam drive that was just good enough for a single and doubled the load on it, trouble should be expected! 

Exactly! Doubling the load on the camshaft gear taper pin, was a sure fire winning approach to creating problems later on down the line, even the Indians recognised this as a problem area in the original design, and beefed up the hub of camshaft timing gear casting. So as  to try and overcome this problem, but this was more of a sticking plaster type solution which never totally cured the problem of the taper pin working loose. It just transferred the problem of the taper pin working loose from  the timing gear cast boss, to the 7/8" diameter camshaft spindle.

Listers never really learn't their lesson in this regard, because when they created the Alpha range, the camshaft timing gear relies solely on an interference fit with the camshaft. Which is also a known weakness on this engine range particularly on the 3 and 4 cylinder engines for the same reasons as identified above.

They also took a marginally strong crankshaft and made it twice as long at double the loading,, trouble should be expected.

They also failed to double the bearing area, hence why a lot of the twins suffer from failure of the centre main bearing (as it gets the most loading, and has the smallest surface area of the three main bearings).

The lack of internal balance weights on the crankshaft is also another serious design flaw with these engines, which is further compounded by having the opposing out of balance force (flywheels) so far away from the source of the out of balance forces. Have you ever seen any twin cylinder Listeriod clones with crankshaft balance weights?

Compare and contrast the differences in the crankshaft from a CS 16/2 (three main bearings) to a Lister CE (also 16 BHP) which has 5 main bearings of considerably bigger diameter than the CS. This is the difference between an engine which was modified from an existing design AKA the Lister L type and one which was created from a blank sheet of paper.

A sensible option which would of been easy to implement, would have been to drastically increase the centre main bearing diameter (which I suspect is what the Indians have done to the large displacement CS twin clone engines, in an attempt to improve reliability).


A few years ago one of the parts stores in England had quite a few twin crankshafts made up to OEM specs. They were quite spendy  but didnt last long.

I know who you mean (IIRC weren't they been advertised as an OEM part) I almost bought one myself at the time, but managed to find a NOS genuine article in the end for a lot less money.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 12:29:01 PM by listard-jp2 »

dax021

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Re: The twin build
« Reply #34 on: January 01, 2018, 09:58:40 AM »
Interesting read on the Lister weaknesses, as here in South Africa they have achieved almost god status.  I guess this is due to the fact that as a previous colony we imported thousands of these things in days gone by and were on most farms, dumpsters, concrete mixers and more.  Our government at the time favoured them as gensets on all their remotes locations, i.e., forrestry, railways, police, mines.  there are still hundreds of these lying around if one were to look properly.  Unfortunately, a lot of them that became redundant and abandoned when the grid expanded, were simply stolen by the locals and sold as scrap metal.  My landlord had a perfectly running example stolen from his farm, smashed into pieces and sold mainly for the copper.

I happened to find a good running SR2 startomatic with Hoffman 4Kw genny on a farm and bought it for about $200.  Not knowing a lot about engines, I would be interested to hear what were the inherent weaknesses in this model.

Thanks,
Peter

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Re: The twin build
« Reply #35 on: January 01, 2018, 12:33:57 PM »


The lack of internal balance weights on the crankshaft is also another serious design flaw with these engines,  Have you ever seen any twin cylinder Listeriod clones with crankshaft balance weights?
 

My 20/2 has bolt on crankshaft counterweights. I balanced the crank with the weights prior to assembly. It still shakes like crazy, even after a few hours playing with the ACES balancing equipment on the twin.
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38ac

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Re: The twin build
« Reply #36 on: January 01, 2018, 12:54:10 PM »
 :)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 07:24:38 PM by 38ac »
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dieselgman

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Re: The twin build
« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2018, 01:54:24 PM »
We sometimes stock a 30/2 Listeroid that has internal counterweights... the crankshaft and valve train otherwise is the same as Lister original though. I don't recall hearing any particular complaints about the crankshafts in the twins... a few comments about the camshafts. I think Butch may have been the main contributor regarding reliability on these. I recall one unit that was dropped in shipment and bent the crank. That same thing has also happened on the 8/1 singles... they were just not designed to be dropped from any height with flywheels on.  ;D

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38ac

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Re: The twin build
« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2018, 03:12:43 PM »
 :)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 07:24:56 PM by 38ac »
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38ac

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Re: The twin build
« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2018, 04:52:51 PM »
 :)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 07:25:11 PM by 38ac »
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38ac

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Re: The twin build
« Reply #40 on: January 01, 2018, 05:06:07 PM »
 :)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 07:25:26 PM by 38ac »
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xyzer

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Re: The twin build
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2018, 04:39:20 AM »
As shipped there is no way to check the oil level or add oil except by removing  the crankcase cover. We will be addressing that during  block prep.
I'm curious of your approach on this improvement. I will be doing the same on a 6/1. They need it!
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mike90045

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Re: The twin build
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2018, 05:32:55 PM »
My simple thought is a 90 deg threaded elbow & sight glass tube at the oil drain plug, and having only a tiny orifice to allow static (non-running) level viewing.

Of course thread pitch and material is important, it's got to withstand 105F oil temps !

BruceM

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Re: The twin build
« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2018, 06:18:21 PM »
I use a urethane tube from the former drain plug hole as a sight tube for oil level.  A warning-  do not think you can tee into it to make an oil fill location...and you must terminate the end of the sight tube into the crankcase, since the crankcase is not at ambient pressure when running.  The original capped tee arrangement caused an air bubble in the line which interfered with sight tube...it flat wouldn't work at all.  Without the tee and cap for oil fill it works fine.  There is no need for a small entry hole for splashing as Mike suggested -  the level in the tube shows the average sump level and doesn't "pulse".   

I put a small magnet in a piece of HDPE tubing with melted-sealed ends as a float inside the sight tube and sense oil level too high or low via reed switches.  The sight tube still works for visual inspection, thus satisfying my desire to allow for total manual reversion. (Full normal operation with electronics turned off.) After an hour of running the oil is black and you don't really see the float tube as you do in the picture.

I use a homemade topsider for oil changes so the drain was unnecessary for me. I rarely need to add oil between 200 hr oil changes...and must change my "sock in a box" gravity oil filter so removing the crankcase big door for oil changes is required anyway.  If I do add oil, I remove the small door.  If I was adding oil regularly, I'd modify the small door for the oil fill.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 06:29:29 PM by BruceM »

BruceM

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Re: The twin build
« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2018, 06:33:39 PM »
For just a oil level sight tube, a piece of 3/8 ID urethane tubing would make a dandy one.  There are right angle brass hose barbs for 3/8 hose with 1/4 npt thread- small enough to allow easy drilling and tapping into the crankcase.   

A tee and short riser for fill on the oil drain could then be used for allowing oil to be added.