Author Topic: Pour a concrete base as per Lister instructions.  (Read 22474 times)

GuyFawkes

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Pour a concrete base as per Lister instructions.
« on: July 25, 2006, 04:50:45 PM »
from http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/html/concrete_base.html

You may hear a lot of people talk about using “a yard of concrete” by which they mean a cubic yard, a cube three feet per side.

This is only half the story, the biggest mistake people make is in the proportions of the block they pour, they end up pouring a “slab” and not a “block”, presumably because nobody likes digging holes.

Lister specified a block 2’ 6” deep, with 3” above the surface of the surrounding floor, in metric this is 76 centimetres deep, 8 centimetres above the surface of the surrounding floor.

Lister specified width of the block to leave a 3” ( 8 cm) gap all around the standard Start-o-matic base, so for the 6/1 2.5 kW set this meant a concrete base 54” x 26” (137 cm x 66 cm) You were supposed to leave 4 off pits 15” deep (38 cm) from the top of the block for the 4 anchor bolts for the cast iron Start-o-matic base. These bolts were supposed to be 0.75” (19 mm) shaft diameter.

Once the concrete base was poured and set, you placed the cast iron Start-o-matic base on the concrete, lined it up, set the hold down bolts in place, and filled the hold down bolt cavities and any uneven spaces between the top of the concrete base and the bottom of the cast iron base with a slightly different mixture of cement referred to as “grout”

The base concrete should be at least 6:1 with a good proportion of 3/4 gravel, and don’t forget to put it some reinforcing steel before you pour. When you do pour take great care to “float” it off, filling ALL voids and the entire volume with concrete. Give it a few days to set, before you think about the next stage.

The “grout” mix should be just sand and cement, no aggregate, in a much lower ratio, 2:1 or even 1:1

I’m not going to tell you how to mix or use concrete, presumably you already know or can find out for yourself or have a builder friend.

If you’re feeling lazy you can buy premix, just add water and mix, or for quantities of a cubic yard and up you can often get the ReadyMix truck to deliver, seeing as your base will be about a yard and a half no worries there, keep an eye out for local building projects, they often have some “spare” in the wagon...

Every time I read about someone having a problem with a Lister “walking” it is someone who has a “slab” and not a “block”, someone who has insufficient mass, eg less than a yard and a half of concrete, or someone using too small diameter hold down bolts. When you personally have build and sold and installed more stationary diesel engines than Lister, feel free to argue with their specifications as set out here...

A cubic yard of 6:1 Portland cement when set weighs about 1.6 Tons.

« Last Edit: July 25, 2006, 04:59:04 PM by GuyFawkes »
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Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Andre Blanchard

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Re: Pour a concrete base as per Lister instructions.
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2006, 05:20:47 PM »
The base concrete should be at least 6:1 with a good proportion of 3/4 gravel, and don’t forget to put it some reinforcing steel before you pour.

This is one area where things can be improved over what Lister recommends.
Add some fibermesh.
http://www.glaciernw.com/dept.asp?d_id=15731&l1=15245&l2=15731
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Jim Mc

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Re: Pour a concrete base as per Lister instructions.
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2006, 05:25:33 PM »

....Once the concrete base was poured and set, you placed the cast iron Start-o-matic base on the concrete, lined it up, set the hold down bolts in place, and filled the hold down bolt cavities and any uneven spaces between the top of the concrete base and the bottom of the cast iron base with a slightly different mixture of cement referred to as “grout”...



Nice Post.  Maybe a little more detail here, though:  When I've done this, I set the engine (base, whatever) on little wood strips - maybe 3/4 inch high.  Then you have plenty of space into which you work/pour the grout.  The grout is mixed to be pretty watery, relative to normal concrete.  You need to build a temporary wood dam around the base so you can keep the grout puddle where you want it.

And don't mention anything about no stinkin' vibration isolators, rubber tires, wood block mounts, discarded mattresses, soggy croutons or any other cushiony crap.  The system being described is a rigid mounting system. 

hotater

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Re: Pour a concrete base as per Lister instructions.
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2006, 06:49:53 PM »
Thank You, Guy---

It's surprizingly similar to what I've planned for my engine.  The main difference is in the height above the surrounding floor.

How do they plan for oil changes at that level, not to mention having to crawl around on the floor when working on the bottom end?

Mine is now 21 inches floor to center of shaft and I'll raise that by 3 inches next time.  The other addition will be a stout, welded drip pan with a drain in it.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

GuyFawkes

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Re: Pour a concrete base as per Lister instructions.
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2006, 10:46:31 PM »


How do they plan for oil changes at that level, not to mention having to crawl around on the floor when working on the bottom end?

Mine is now 21 inches floor to center of shaft and I'll raise that by 3 inches next time.  The other addition will be a stout, welded drip pan with a drain in it.

1/ working on the bottom end sir? not with a lister.

2/ back in the day EVERYONE had those big old brass syringe pumps for this, I haven't even seen one for decades... googles

kinda like the image below but about 2' long

3/ listers do not leak oil sir, they mark their spot.

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Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Andre Blanchard

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Re: Pour a concrete base as per Lister instructions.
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2006, 11:14:35 PM »
If this is to commercial just say so and I will delete it.

On this page is a video showing some engine installations.
Near the end is a generator install, note that the engine generator and the base are several thousand lbs and then note the size of the concrete slab/block I am guessing it is not just floating on top of the ground.  And these engines are a lot better balanced then your average listeroid.
http://www.arrowengine.com/aboutarrow.htm
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snail

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Re: Pour a concrete base as per Lister instructions.
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2006, 01:13:58 AM »
I'm not a concrete expert, but what's the advantage of using form ply as shown in the photo?(or do I need glasses?) I thought the idea was to fill the hole with concrete and steel and have it "key" into the dirt.This is a genuine question cos' i've got to pour the block for another motor (1936 and better than a lister ;D ;D

cheers ,

Brian

Andre Blanchard

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Re: Pour a concrete base as per Lister instructions.
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2006, 01:17:03 PM »
I'm not a concrete expert, but what's the advantage of using form ply as shown in the photo?(or do I need glasses?) I thought the idea was to fill the hole with concrete and steel and have it "key" into the dirt.This is a genuine question cos' i've got to pour the block for another motor (1936 and better than a lister ;D ;D

cheers ,

Brian


Not positive but I do not think there is anything lining that hole just a 2X4 (or the metric equivalent) frame around the top.  I think I see some roots coming out of the sides.  But I must say whom ever dug that hole did a real nice job of it.  They also do not have the rocks that I do.

But you do not really want the dirt near the top of the hole to get a grip on the concrete.  As the ground freezes it does so from the top down, if the frozen dirt at the surface can grab onto the block it will lift the block a little as the freezing proceeds deeper and heaves.  Then a little dirt can get washed in under the block so that it never settles all the way back down.
Frequently blocks like the one in the picture are made with a taper larger at the bottom then at the top.
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Jackpine Savage

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Re: Pour a concrete base as per Lister instructions.
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2006, 03:32:12 PM »
Whether or not you need to form it will depend on your soil type. If you have sandy soil that may collapse during the  pour you definitely need to form it all the way to the bottom. If you have heavy stable clay soil you can probably get by with using the earth as a form.

snail

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Re: Pour a concrete base as per Lister instructions.
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2006, 02:33:03 AM »
Thanks, guys.
     I've never seen soil like that! Maybe I'll get my eyes tested after all! I've lived on three continents and never had to deal with frozen ground, but I understand it's a major issue for some of you.My biggest problem is BONE dry clay (hard as rock) and trying to keep the concrete moist enough to cure.
    I suppose we all have our crosse to bear..... :D

Cheers,

Brian

Twinscrew

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Re: Pour a concrete base as per Lister instructions.
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2006, 05:02:55 AM »
Concrete will finish harder and stronger if it is kept from drying out for a period of time. The amount of time is dependant on many variables and differs in any given situation. However, one can ensure that one's concrete will be the strongest possible by simply lining the form with polyethylene (Visqueen) sheathing. Without the sheathing the dry earth will quickly draw the moisture from the concrete accelerating the reaction (calcification) which gives the concrete its ultimate strength. The longer this reaction takes the stronger the molecular bond. Simply adding more water is not a viable solution. This will dilute the mix and cause chalking resulting in a very weak slab. Concrete is not considered fully cured for at least 28 days. Cheers.......

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Pour a concrete base as per Lister instructions.
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2006, 10:13:01 PM »
Crankshaft height is stated in my ASHWAMEGH manual. I forget, but it was about 27 inches? Anyway, it's important for hand starting a twin, so my question is:
How do you cast the concrete foundation and still get the higher crankshaft height called out in the manual?
I consider all soils to be 'semi-fluid' so the foundation block would eventually tip if it was not designed correctly?
I keep going back to the Internal Fire Museum online and looking at the way they make engine beds for the antique diesels that I love looking at.
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mobile_bob

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Re: Pour a concrete base as per Lister instructions.
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2006, 12:52:39 AM »
on concrete strength

this is from a customer of mine, who runs a concrete company,,

if you want a super strong slab,, use no more water than is necessary to work it,,,,
it doesnt take much more water to seriously weaken the end product.

28 days is about 95% cured,,, but the theory goes that it continues to harden for years!

very dry mix concrete is hard as hell after about 50 years,,, ask a guy behind a jack hammer ,, he can tell you
if it was a dry or wet mix.

bob g
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Doug

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Re: Pour a concrete base as per Lister instructions.
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2006, 01:47:58 AM »
Thats why so many guys do a slump test I guess before the truck starts to unload....

Doug

Also fiber, rebar, air, and ash for strength



hotater

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Re: Pour a concrete base as per Lister instructions.
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2006, 01:56:15 AM »
Just a few minutes ago I finished welding together a HEAVY (1/2x3x6) angle iron frame that will be set directly into the concrete about half way and the other half in grout.
  The 24x60 x 24"deep hole has been cut through the old concrete and soil below and enough scrap iron and re-bar for a SHO NUFF engine mount.

I'm going to form a 24 x 60 x 12" tall box around the hole and just keep pouring until there's three inches left for grout.  With the base of the engine 12 inches off the floor it puts the center of the crankshaft at 24 inches from the floor.  Mine is now 19 inches and the extra five will be nice.

The frame is drilled for eight 3/4 x 24" tiedown bolts.  The engine can be mounted on either end or the middle position, or two engines will fit on the same mount.   I drilled and tapped 12  more  1/2" holes for whatever else might need to be bolted on later.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.