Author Topic: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab  (Read 34624 times)

BruceM

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #135 on: September 07, 2018, 04:13:24 PM »
During the heyday of US Listeroid importing, few, including myself, were willing to accept that a complete strip down and refinish of the crankcase was necessary, as some importers were insisting that that was unnecessary and overkill by perfectionists. 

Completely delusional baloney to increase sales, I'm now quite sure after just 2 engines.

Thanks, 38AC, for stating it so clearly:

'not thoroughly clean and coat the engine is just wasted time, effort and money IMO"


ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #136 on: September 14, 2018, 09:55:31 AM »
Well Guys and Girls, I once again got a bit done on the old iron. Having checked the run out in the new crankshaft I am convinced that the new bushes are a fraction too tight. I have scrapped the bushes a touch and everything now turns freely. Perhaps a little tighter than I would like, so I intend to hook it up to an electric motor and run it in on the bench, a couple of hours with an oil change after should flush out any crap and ensure good longevity.

Sadly the keyways on the new crankshaft are about a half inch shorter than the original. This has made it impossible to refit the oil thrower rings as per the original. I have had to file off the lugs that located into the keyways and then set them with medium strength Loctite.

Flywheels have now been fitted, with an anti seize compound. Because the keyways are shorter I have had to shorten the gib keys and file a radius on the leading edges.

So now I need to address the issues with the camshaft and idler gear. The idler gear itself looks to be OK but does not mesh well with the pinion on the crankshaft. I will be turning up a new spigot with an offset as per 38ac`s instructions on the WOK. I need to know how to guesstimate the correct offset.

The camshaft is badly worn at the oil pump/injector end (lubrication issues) however the other end that runs in a steel bush is serviceable. I dry assembled that end of the shaft (see photo) and found 20 thou of end float in the old bush. I ordered a new bush, when it arrived it was of such poor quality that I wouldn`t dream of fitting it. It is also 25 thou shorter than the original, worn, item and takes the end float out to 45 thou. I am guessing that the correct end float is between 5 and 10 thou as per the crankshaft. Dieselspanner did a fine job of making new bushes, so I intend to follow his advice. I have a piece of 1.25" diameter cast iron for one end and an undersized oilite bush for the other end. I will turn down the worn end of the camshaft and then turn the Oilite bush to fit.

I am guessing that the important issue when doing this work is to ensure that the cam gear aligns well with the idler gear and then dimension the new steel bush to keep it aligned, clearly too much end float in the camshaft will also impact on the accuracy of the governor assembly and how accurately the engine maintains RPM under load. Advice please.

I also ordered a new cast iron cover for the non injector end of the camshaft. The new cover looked fine on the outside but was full of casting sand inside. It has now been cleaned and painted inside and out.

Info on end float please,

Bob



dieselspanner

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #137 on: September 14, 2018, 05:35:11 PM »
I gotta 'fess up here, it weren't me wot made the bearings for the cam shaft, In WAS me that shamelessly copied Ed Dee's method of reeming out the hole in the crankcase and using a bush with an offset hole to move the idler bolt into the best position 'tho.......

Cheers
Stef


Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #138 on: September 14, 2018, 10:57:56 PM »
Sorry Stef, I`m getting you confused with Dieselsmoker. Thanks for fessing up.
I`ll check out Ed Dee`s offset bush approach.

Bob

EdDee

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #139 on: September 15, 2018, 08:44:47 AM »
Bwahaha..... Who uses my name in vain.... Who summoned the dark lord?

To measure the clearance.... aah..... forget it.... Ream the hole as large as you are comfortable with, machine up a piece of shaft to fit it snugly, cut off a suitable length and bore an offset to match your pin diameter .... guess it for the first one... if it is too tight, make another slightly less offset, too loose, go the other way.... within 2 or 3 tries you should be happy...

Maybe I was just lucky, but after an hour or 2 of making notes, calculation and measuring... well I just eyeballed it and got it more than satisfactory on second bush...

Ed
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ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #140 on: September 15, 2018, 09:34:17 AM »
Oh sh1t, didn`t intend to summon the Dark Lord. Which version are we talking about? The biblical scary demon, J R R Tolkein  Mordor variety or the regular J K Rowling  Harry Potter type. Should I be scared or just get on with building the engine?  :laugh:

I like the simplicity of an offset bush, coupled with 3bac`s offset spigot we could have a completely adjustable setup which could be regularly adjusted during routine servicing.

Bob

listard-jp2

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #141 on: September 15, 2018, 01:36:33 PM »
I ordered a new INDIAN bush, when it arrived it was of such poor quality that I wouldn`t dream of fitting it.

They always are :laugh:

The genuine item can be bought from here at a very reasonable price:

http://www.realdiesels.co.uk/listerparts2.html

ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #142 on: September 16, 2018, 08:50:50 AM »
Well now I am totally confused. Today I dry assembled the cam shaft and fitted it. I aligned the governor sprocket with the idler gear and I have 75 thou of end float using the old worn components. Could the end bush and keeper have worn that much or am I missing something? I realize that there is little or no lubrication to the mating surfaces at the non injector pump end but 75 thou?

I am intending to turn up a new steel bush for this end of the camshaft but am concerned that moving the cam this far, to reduce the end float, will offset the cam lobes too much. Thoughts please.

Bob

EdDee

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #143 on: September 16, 2018, 06:13:54 PM »
Offset on the cam lobes by up to about 2mm either way is normally not a major problem. Look at the other end of the cam shaft to make sure that the ip roller and oil pump are about centre, or not hanging off the end of their cam... you can reduce the end float by Counterboring the non ip side's camshaft end washer/retaining cap slightly, if yours has one.. on my roid, there was a small washer between the end cap and the cam shaft to give enough clearance....about 90thou or so... I removed the offending washer and found that the end cap was binding on the bushing, so relieved it a bit to give about 5 to 10 thou....
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
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Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
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ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #144 on: September 16, 2018, 10:27:36 PM »
Thanks Ed, I`ll reassemble the whole camshaft today and fit it. I`ll check the alignment between the gears and the IP roller and then measure the end float at the other end. I should then be able to work out the dimensions for the new bush aiming for 5 to 10 thou clearance. My Dursley Lister does not have a shim washer to set the end float, I suspect that was an Indian modification to allow for their greater manufacturing tolerances.

I`ll let you know what I find.

Bob

mikenash

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #145 on: September 16, 2018, 10:33:10 PM »
"greater manufacturing tolerances".  A generous term

ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #146 on: September 16, 2018, 10:46:21 PM »
Much easier to make shim washers in various thicknesses than to get your manufacturing tolerances right!

Bob

ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #147 on: September 17, 2018, 09:34:51 AM »
Well guys here is the info as promised. The gear on the crankshaft and The idler gear mesh very well and the faces are parallel. (please see photo) The camshaft gear is out of alignment towards the injector pump end by 20 thou, probably nothing to worry about.

The injector pump cam lobe is out off alignment, in the opposite direction, by about 30 thou. I have tossed the thick gasket I purchased and cut a thin paper replacement, this reduces the 30 thou to about 10 thou, hopefully within tolerance. (see pic)

The camshaft end float using the old worn bush and end cap now comes in at 25 thou. (see photo) I will take a very small skim off the end cap because it is pitted with rust and then turn a new cast iron bush to give me 5 thou of end float. I will also be taking a skim off the worn end of the camshaft(IP end) before turning the new Oilite bush to fit.

I have checked the lash in the timing gears, I have about 5 thou between the idler gear and the crankshaft pinion gear. I have about 10 thou between the idler gear and the camshaft gear. (done with feeler gauges)
I am thinking a new idler spigot with an off set of around 25 to 30 thou should get me in the ball park.

Advice please,

Bob



ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #148 on: September 18, 2018, 12:10:45 AM »
Hey Glort, It`s a mixture of wear and manufacturing defects.

The first issue was the new crankshaft and bush bearings being too short and having 30 thou of end float, without any gaskets under the bearing housings. Had to cut shims to get the end float down to 5 thou and use a liquid gasket. The crankshaft gear now aligns well with the original idler gear.

The second issue is wear in the idler gear and spigot which leaves me with 5 thou of lash with the crankshaft gear and 10 thou lash with the camshaft. I am sure this can be resolved with an offset spigot bolt.

The third issue is the alignment between the idler gear and the camshaft gear. This must be a manufacturing error on the original Lister! (please don`t throw things  ;D ) The wear in the steel bush and keeper have actually improved the alignment.

The last issue is the position of the new cam lobe for the injector pump. It is not centered under the injector roller. I have reduced the problem by using a much thinner gasket but it is still not right. I could get it spot on by adjusting the steel bush and keeper at the other end of the camshaft but this makes the gear alignment worse. I have wondered if this misalignment is deliberate allowing the non meshing 30 thou of the camshaft to act as an oil thrower to lubricate the brass bush and injector pump roller.

Anyone thinking they can repair a Lister cs by simply swapping worn parts for new Indian parts is going to be very disappointed, the tolerances and dimensions just don`t match.
Thoughts please.

Bob


ajaffa1

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Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« Reply #149 on: September 20, 2018, 08:32:28 AM »
Managed to get access to a mate`s lathe today, so I turned down the injector pump end of the camshaft by 25 thou. Turned a new bush from an over sized piece of Oilite. I am not going to bother to cut an oiler groove in this bush as the original didn`t have one and lasted for nearly sixty years.

I`ll have a go at an off set spigot for the idler gear tomorrow. I managed to salvage a suitable piece of steel from an old Land Rover gearbox. It was so hard that I couldn`t mark it with a file so I put it in our wood burning stove overnight to anneal it, nice and soft now. I should be able to harden and temper it afterwards.

Bob