Author Topic: Oiling Improvements  (Read 7114 times)

Samo

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Oiling Improvements
« on: October 25, 2017, 09:21:13 AM »
To the Lister modder inside you all...

I've searched extensively, but not quite found what I'm after... has anyone modified or can point me to modifying the oiling system to provide better lubrication the Cam bearings and Injector pushrods? In my 12/2 it has obvious signs of poor lubrication around the cam area, especially the side without the full cutout. I was thinking of extending the oil plumbing network up to the cam, but concerned about there being enough oil pressure to do that. Also extending the plumbing without enough support might end in disaster (wrapped around moving bits etc...)

Any thoughts?

Samo

ps example of the governor weight pivot pin (or what ever it's proper name is...)

Lister CS 12/2 & JKSON 10/1 Listeroid

38ac

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Re: Oiling Improvements
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2017, 01:22:45 PM »
There are some lube issues over on the #2 side of the twins, not severe issues but there for sure. Consider how old it is and how much work it has done to get in that shape. Also consider how much your going to use it? Also consider what you do to the value if you modify in a manner that cannot be easily reversed.   I had a 16/2 work engine through the shop that had similar issues. I added a #5 drip oiler over there and ran a tube inside the casting to get the oil on the cam lobe. I think I added a drain hole back into the crankcase also?? Maybe there was one there already? cant remember :-\   
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starfire

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Re: Oiling Improvements
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2017, 10:13:04 PM »
On a CS single, its quite easy to increase oiling on the far side simply by removing the brass bung. This allows the crankcase pressure on each down stroke to force oil mist out the hole, thereby oiling the cam and bearing. It also makes a mess  over time, I just throw a rag over the hole, but a 1/4 inch pipe could be added to direct any oil to the rockers... this would be useful and quite elegant.

dieselspanner

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Re: Oiling Improvements
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2017, 08:24:48 AM »
Hi Starfire

I'm liking the rocker oiler.....

I don't think it would be too hard to fit a scavenge line with a non return valve to shift any excess oil from the head back to the sump using the negative crank case pressure on the 'up stroke' of the piston

Hummmmmmmm

Cheers Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

Samo

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Re: Oiling Improvements
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2017, 08:40:44 AM »
Thanks for the ideas, and the comments. I've got plenty to think about....

I've not run up the 12/2 yet, and I'm wondering how much crankcase pressure there is given the pistons always oppose each other? I can easily see the mist approach working on a single, but a twin?

As for work I do intend this 12/2 will be backup power (12/2 + 9kva Alternator) for my accommodation business (B&B), I'd like to go off grid but xyl doesn't want to do that  >:( but maybe it's not out of the realms of possibility for the future...

I just don't think our governments are going to solve the recent power issues any time soon and I'm going to be prepared! Tasmanian government put in an undersea cable to the mainland... it burnt out... and it's 150M for a new one...

I don't know how this engine was treated, but I've got an idea it wasn't well - #2 Piston was siezed for a start - then on the other hand I've put so much time into this project and if I'm going to do anything now is the time, just as I'm starting the re-assembly phase.

cheers,
Samo
Lister CS 12/2 & JKSON 10/1 Listeroid

starfire

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Re: Oiling Improvements
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2017, 10:16:08 AM »
Keep in mind, these are not Ferrari or Lamborghini engines. Think agricultural. They will tolerate literally decades of abuse, dirt, crappy oil, they run with cracked flywheels and blocks. The rings can have 1/4 inch wear gaps, the cylinder can be totally devoid of chrome plating, the big end journal can have 1/16 inch slop, and still these things will run. Ive seen engines in this condition. One I remember had rounded head nuts, these had been  tightened with a plumbers  pipe wrench.  I will say ALL engines I have bought were running with sump oil resembling thick tar. .
Samo, your engine will likely refuse to run properly as its too perfect and you are obviously killing it with too much love and affection.  ;) If I believed in reincarnation, Id like to return as your engine.
Re the crankcase pressure, there is always some blowby in these engines, thats what makes the go oil black so quick, so you will have some pressure buildup even in a twin.... but it may be limited.
If you have any doubts about oiling effectiveness, make a clear perspex replacement sump cover.

Steff, just modify/restrict  the pipe diameter to deliver just enough oil up top..... the valve guide clearance will hold the level, they dont have seals and are usually fairly loose. ... short rockers cause side thrust on the stems.
I have the injector return dripping onto the exhaust valve rocker, as the slight  injector leakage is oil in my case.... and it didnt cost anything other than the few seconds to reorient the pipe.

One other thing I always mean to mention, overheating.
When a Lister gets too hot, it stops without damage. It will begin to lose power, due I think to poor combustion, and will slow to a stop. I have witnessed this a few times with similar engines, so it seems to be a repeatable phenomena.... like im not suggesting its a good thing, but thats what happens.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 10:47:17 AM by starfire »

dieselspanner

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Re: Oiling Improvements
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2017, 12:10:50 PM »
Nice one again, Starfire.

A bit of brazing and that's the top end lube sorted, hopefully

I don't know anything about reincarnation but for years I've been hoping to come back as a book mark in a Janet Reger catalogue (for those in foreign p,laces see  http://www.petite-coquette.co.uk/janet-reger/ )

Cheers Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

Samo

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Re: Oiling Improvements
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2017, 12:16:05 PM »
ok, I get it... but I do find it hard to back off on this engine rebuild. Maybe I have a slight perfectionist streak? my Hillclimb (bitumen track) car is a worked to the limits with JE pistons, huge cam, loads of head work, aftermarket ECU - giving extended rev range and 40% power upgrade without a turbo (its very responsive)...  revs out to 8300 from the original 6500 and that top end... it's addictive  ;D  But at the same time so temperamental.. So yes I'll TRY backing off but I'm not sure I can afford the therapy  :o

I've seen the oil coverage in my single and it's impressive, but from the evidence the twin has an oil shadow on #2 side, the parts behind that part of the crankcase divider have much more wear than the parts exposed in the main crankcase. There's a manual oiling point above the #2 injector pushrod, I'm thinking of running an oil line externally from the oil pump to that point. The plus with this approach - it's totally reversible and won't foul anything if it all turns to custard.

Quote
I don't know anything about reincarnation but for years I've been hoping to come back as a book mark in a Janet Reger catalogue (for those in foreign p,laces see  http://www.petite-coquette.co.uk/janet-reger/ )

Ok... I'm with you on that Stef, but I'm afraid I'd need some oiling improvements first  ::) :laugh:







« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 12:22:12 PM by Samo »
Lister CS 12/2 & JKSON 10/1 Listeroid

starfire

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Re: Oiling Improvements
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2017, 12:43:42 PM »
Nice one again, Starfire.

A bit of brazing and that's the top end lube sorted, hopefully

I don't know anything about reincarnation but for years I've been hoping to come back as a book mark in a Janet Reger catalogue (for those in foreign p,laces see  http://www.petite-coquette.co.uk/janet-reger/ )

Cheers Stef

Awesome....., Dont be brazen, these ones will come pre lubed.....

newlister61

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Re: Oiling Improvements
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2017, 09:43:27 PM »
Hi chaps. I'm close to putting the crank back in a 6/1 after a big end regrind. and ive been thinking the same, about oil feed, to the camshaft, and up to the rockers. and it's just struck me now after reading your comments. Has anyone tried fitting. another oil pump, at the side, is there enough clearance, to flywheel. i will take a look, when i can find my crank main bearing housings, that I've put safe somewhere. four years ago. ? cheers.

starfire

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Re: Oiling Improvements
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2017, 01:56:54 AM »
The original oil pump has more than adequate capacity to feed a pipe going to the cam bearings, and even the rockers.
The way it works is this.
There is no pressure as such. The pump sucks oil from the lower crankcase, and feeds it via piping to  the main bearings. These are designed to have  weirs above the bearing housings, all it does it keeps these weirs full, and all the overflow runs down into the containment above the lower crankcase that keeps a constant level to feed the big end dipper. When this oil overflows, it returns to the lower crankcase. There is far more oil pumped around than is needed, so stealing some to drip lube other areas is no problem.
But, its alot of buggering around and is really not needed. These engines have run for decades, a recond Lister will outlast its current owner just the way it is.
 It would be impossible for any shortcomings that are a real issue to have survived  a hundred years without someone noticing already, Lister would have fixed and redesigned it  within just a few years of any long term weakness with the original design, as they did when increasing crankpin size early on.
I would say my Lister would be up there with running hours, 1500/2000 every year., and it never has a lubrication issue... EVER.
Adding stuff it doesnt need is likely to effect reliability in a negative direction, rather than make it better.... its simplicity was its main virtue.
They dont need more of anything.
Even poorly maintained engines wear very little, given the incredible hours they do,  the driest part of the engine are the valve guides, few owners bothered to lubricate lubricated manually the way Lister intended, even then, guide wear was minimal.
The engine lovers on this forum are highly unlikely to mistreat their engines and would always lubricate the rockers and valve assembly periodically.
The more there is, the more chance of something going wrong....

ajaffa1

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Re: Oiling Improvements
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2017, 11:35:04 AM »
Nice one again, Starfire.

A bit of brazing and that's the top end lube sorted, hopefully

I don't know anything about reincarnation but for years I've been hoping to come back as a book mark in a Janet Reger catalogue (for those in foreign p,laces see  http://www.petite-coquette.co.uk/janet-reger/ )

Cheers Stef
Looking at stuff like this will make you blind, recommend you only risk one eye.
Bob

EdDee

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Re: Oiling Improvements
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2017, 03:40:48 PM »
@Glort,

Hmm.... food for thought....but then again, I don't think that anybody could say that Hugh Hefner is in a better place now....

Lol
Ed
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starfire

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Re: Oiling Improvements
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2017, 10:06:56 PM »
Unlike a good old Lister, bimbos and women in general appear to have retained all their flaws they were designed with, and seem to defy any improvement.
Imagine a female Lister for a moment.
Im not going to start today, Im not just here for your convenience.
Im not going to run today, I dont feel like doing anything.
That oil isnt good enough, I deserve better cause Im worth it.
I dont like being painted green, I want choice.
You have stereotyped me into being an engine.
Im tired of living in a male dominated society
I continue to break down, I like attention.
I take the decision  to run and stop as I please, its called empowerment.
So what If I dont feel like performing today, you have unfair expectations of me.
Rotate your own pulley, its all about you.
You are a pervert wanting rubber and leather belting.
Im tired of being ignored once your batteries are full, you take me  for granted.
Im more than just a pair of big pistons.
Not today, I have a headache.
I ran last week, you are far too demanding.
No other engine would put up with you like I do.
You are just using me.
And so on......
Honestly,, that Lister would be too unreliable and need to be scrapped.





ajaffa1

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Re: Oiling Improvements
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2017, 09:04:38 AM »
Women? I had a good day in the shed, went out a white man returned a black man. Wife wouldn`t let me in the house. Is this discrimination or just good house keeping.