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Author Topic: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson  (Read 7295 times)

queenofjacks

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Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« on: September 22, 2017, 04:32:34 PM »
  After going through Irma and her after effects, I have decided to go to the 'Cooling Tank /Thermo-Siphon' method of cooling.  My rig ran for over 100 hours with no serious problems - just some "teething and break-in" minor issues.  I used an after market radiator for a ford mustang with a cooling fan (added the fan during the outage - overheating).  After adding the radiator fan with a really nice thermostat/relay controller,  the radiator worked flawlessly - 'til the battery died.  That said, I still want to go back to the utter simplicity of a cooling tank, which is the way Mr. Lister intended for these units to be cooled.  My goal is total simplicity, reliability and 'bullet-proofness' (is that a word?).  I may even remove my electric starting system (which worked great - until the battery died!  I failed to re-adjust the voltage regulator after adding the radiator fan - minor fix) -- Hand cranking is very easy.
  Anyhow, all of this stuff is for sale - all of it was purchased new within the last 6 months.  I 'm only trying to get some of my money back - so those interested, get back to me and we'll talk.   ---- Charlie (352)201-4473
Lovson 10/1  7.5KW - Power Solutions 20/2  12KW - Lister SR2 7.5KW - 2-Lister 8/1's - Lister TR2 7.5KW

Tom

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2017, 05:39:00 PM »
In an emergency, a large tank of hot water can be useful for cooking things in plastic bags, bathing and all kinds of good stuff.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

LowGear

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2017, 06:43:56 PM »
Quote
a large tank of hot water can be useful for cooking things in plastic bags

Where else would you learn this sort of stuff?

Onward:

Once I saw the airflow induced radiator system where the exhaust is used as a venturi energy source I have been absolutely fascinated by the concept. 

I've also wondered how well six or so computer fans would serve pull-tied to a radiator?  They're really low powered compared to an auto or motorcycle based one.  Pretty cheap too.

Casey
NPR Tipper/Dump Truck
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Witte BD Generator
SunnyBoy 6000 + SolarWorld 245

Tom

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2017, 07:30:20 PM »
It came from practical experience here. While building our remote off-grid home, the Roid was our power supply. Hot water from the tank was used for cleanup many times and although I never cooked with it, those Stoffers packaged meals designed to be boiled would have made a great lunch or dinner. Now the hot water is used to heat the floors of the house.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

ronmar

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2017, 01:50:06 AM »
A couple of computer fans would move enough air to cool a 6/1 with a modest radiator...
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

LowGear

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2017, 07:05:18 PM »
Hey Charlie,

Keep It Simple; Smarty.  I reread your post and now that I'm over my cool fantasies I think your right.  (Yes, that's a pun.)

What you going to use for a tank?  Around here we have many 100 pound propane tanks that look like they'd work really nice and once they're out of date most people just leave them at the transfer station.  At 8.3 pounds per gallon you'll want to do some solid supporting.  I'm guessing these units come in around 10 gallons or 80 pounds of water.
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Hugh Conway

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2017, 11:43:19 PM »
I am a big fan of thermosiphon cooling too. Simple. the biggest downside is that if you live in a place that has freezing weather (I do), the required amount of anti-freeze starts getting expensive fast.
I started out using a 30 gallon cooling tank. It would never fully heat up in my usual 2 hour battery (about 3Kw load) charging runs. Now I use a 10 fin cast iron radiator with an expansion tank on that engine. Heats up quickly and does not overheat. I suppose your ambient temperatures and loading would determine the amount of cooling capacity required. Lister recommended something like a 50 Imperial gallon cooling tank with a 6/1. Seems like overkill, but maybe not if you are running 24/7 in a hot climate.
I have a old 15 gallon galvanized milk can with fittings welded on as a cooling tank for my Dursley. Have not seen enough run time on that one to give a good opinion. Same thermosiphon set-up, and I do not anticipate running it for long periods. Should be fine based on the results with a 30 gallon tank on the Listeroid.
Our winter domestic hot water is produced by a thermosiphon through a coil in my woodstove.  it has worked  flawlessly for many years, as has the listeroid cooling system.

Cheers,
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

queenofjacks

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2017, 08:36:26 PM »
  Everything that you say has merit, Glort -- but, everything that you are saying seems to add complexity to the system and my goal is simplicity.  My Starter/generator worked fine --- the battery slowly died (and fan slowly died) because I failed to re-adjust the voltage regulator after adding the cooling fan.  I didn't feel like doing that in the middle of the night - (time consuming) - hot 'roid, hurricane and all that!  Disconnecting the drive belt and hooking up the battery charger was a lot easier and quicker.  The 100+ hour run showed me some of the weak points (or less reliable points) in my system.  The fan didn't fail, the fan controller didn't fail, the radiator didn't fail, the starter/generator didn't fail - (but any of them could have).  Going to a tank system eliminates all of those things.  A 55 gallon drum, some fittings and hose, a 195 degree automotive thermostat, a temperature gauge - all with a low risk of failure --- just add water and some anti-freeze (I'm in Florida, so it doesn't take much) and the problem is solved!  I'll leave the starter/generator in place - but disconnect the belt.  It's there for when I  get too old or feeble to hand crank it!  BTW - the starter/generator works very well --- but it's still another belt driving something -- another potential failure item!  A hand crank is hard to beat when it comes to simplicity and reliability!! ------ Cheers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                   Charlie
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 12:40:27 AM by queenofjacks »
Lovson 10/1  7.5KW - Power Solutions 20/2  12KW - Lister SR2 7.5KW - 2-Lister 8/1's - Lister TR2 7.5KW

BruceM

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2017, 10:39:16 PM »
The only problem with tanks for cooling is the large volume ($)) of anitifreeze in colder climates.

For a generator system (electric power for fan) for a cold climate, a Honda Civic or other small thermosiphon radiator with a couple muffin fans (per Ronmar's setup) or a cast iron radiator are neck and neck for simplest and cheapest solution, though induced draft isn't far behind.  Alas, few old cast iron radiators to be found for cheap in Arizona.

mikenash

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2017, 03:40:29 AM »

Our winter domestic hot water is produced by a thermosiphon through a coil in my woodstove.  it has worked  flawlessly for many years, as has the listeroid cooling system.

Cheers,
Hugh
[/quote]

Hugh, I have had thermosiphon wetback hot water systems running on solid-fuel stoves ("coal ranges") in three successive houses for over 30 years and am just now building one for a fourth house.  The nearest thing to a problem of any kind I have ever had is simply a surplus of free hot water - even when we had teenagers at home.  I just love the woodstove and the wetback

Cheers, Mike

starfire

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2017, 06:00:42 AM »
Well, im a great believer in redundancy. One Lister swings two car alternators, unlikely both will fail at once. I have seperate inverters for house lighting, my electronic workshop, the  240v  service outlets, and a fourth powers my engineering workshop lighting. The Petter runs a 6kva alternator, this also has a backup battery charger made from an arc welding transformer. A third 2kva petrol is my last standby unit when everything else fails.
On that day, i will commit suicide, as my life skills have clearly degenerated to the point where even drugs wont hide  the fact im obviously past it. I have two cars and a motorbike, so will never be stranded. I even have two houses in case one burns down...
A few backup wives would be handy, this I have yet to manage.... they tend to fight among themselves and nothing important like cooking gets done...... they appear not to have any sort of standby mode......

cujet

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2017, 10:43:15 AM »
I power my 12V automotive fan with a 12V transformer, rectifier and large filter capacitor. Drives the fan from one 120v leg of the generator head.

I tried the imported electronic power supplies, but they fail over time.

The simple setup is 100% reliable.
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38ac

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2017, 11:39:54 AM »
Three valid arguments against tank/thermosyphon set up are weight, cost of antifreeze and run times at given loadings and ambient temps. If none of those is a consideration then it is hard to beat. Somewhere in the manuals there is a spec sheet for tank volume, ambient temps and loading, if i can find it I will post the information. A 6/1 cannot be operated around the clock at full load in warm weather with a 55 gallon drum of water as it's cooling system,, that I do remember. The tank cooling set ups in most of the old engine manuals were for 8 hours running at something like 3/4 loading at temps around 75 degrees. I recommend a thermosyphon/radiator/ fan set up for most of my customers. How the fan is powered varies with engine usage. 110V AC is pretty simple if the engine is running a generator but requires some switch gear that can get spendy unless you shop diligently.  12 Volt set ups are simple and usually are powered by a 10SI Delco alternator and of course you must have a battery of some sort. I have also set up a couple with mechanical driven fans for my bearded friends that have a disdain for things electric ;)

The most interesting setup I have run across was delivered with my 31HP Blackstone MP which was part of a prime power generator setup  when both Lister and Blackstone were owned by Mirrlees. There was two complete cooling loops both tank and radiator. The primary cooling was thermosiphon via approximately 100 gallon tank set vertically. The tank also had two additional inlet/outlets that were plumbed to a radiator with fan and thermostats. In operation the tank cooled the engine until the tank temp reached a given range. At that point a thermostat would open allowing water to circulate from the tank to the radiator via thermosiphon thus giving any needed additional cooling capacity, if things continues to warm up another thermostat controlled the radiator fan. In operation the engine heated the tank and if the tank got too warm the thermostatically controlled radiator loop helped cooled the tank and if needed a fan would cool the radiator. Remember that this was a prime power set and was purchased by a customer whom cost was no object,,, LOL.
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ronmar

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2017, 05:19:23 PM »
I agree! My gripe with tank cooling are the same as 38ac's. Antifreeze keeps the corrosion in the cylinder and head at bay. My 61 system uses just over 2 gal in the primary loop(smallest volume I have ever heard of) but I am running a low volume/tiny water to water flat plate heatex on mine.  The upshot is it costs me 1 gal of propolene glycol based A/F mixed at 50% in a sealed system with expansion tank...  It dosn;t corrode, it dosn't get dirty and it works... 

Tank cooling is not the best for long-term operation.  IMO it is for when you don't have something better available, and most of us do...  Tank cooling is entirely dominated by evaporation. As an example, a 55 gallon drum is 34" tall X 24" diameter.  With 210F coolant and 60F still air, an open tank should shed 3240 BTU/SQFT/HR thru evaporation.  The metal skin will only shed around 360 BTU/SQFT/HR at those temps.(around 9:1 ratio) Add it all up.  The drum sidewall is 17.8 SQ/FT, the bottom and top are 3.14 SQ/FT EA for a total metal skin area around 24 SQ/FT.  At the above temps,, an open top drum will Shed around 8600 BTU/HR if the top is on.  That is a little under 1/2 the heat output of a 6/1 at full load.  It is actually less than that, as the temp in the water decreases as you go down so less heat loss near the bottom.  The open water surface area of an open topped drum is 3.14 SQ/Ft @ 3600 BTU/HR = 11,304 BTU/HR thru radiation and evaporation for a total of 18,804 BTU/HR from a 55 gallon open topped drum.  This will decrease with higher ambient air temperatures. The open tank is really self regulating as you approach 212F the evap heat loss skyrockets, but so does the water loss...  That 18.8KBTU/HR figure is almost exactly 1/3 the BTU content of the fuel burnt by a 6/1 at full load(and very close to heat outputs I have measured from my 6/1:)) IE: a 55 gallon open topped drum will just cool a 6/1 at full load at 60F as long as you keep the water topped off(they are not foolproof either).

IMO best left for the jungle with an abundance of empty fuel drums and water...
       
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Hugh Conway

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2017, 06:11:35 PM »
Butch said "Three valid arguments against tank/thermosyphon set up are weight, cost of antifreeze and run times at given loadings and ambient temps."
All valid considerations. In a stationary situation, especially given the weight of the engine itself, the additional weight of a full cooling tank is probably not significant. In my particular case, run times limited to around 2 hours, and cool ambient temps, a small thermosiphon tank suffices. I did eliminate my 30 gallon tank due to cost of anti-freeze and the fact that it never really got very hot in a 2 hour off-grid battery charging  run. The replacement cast iron radiator and expansion tank is just about right and uses a total of 5 gallons of coolant. It still retains the advantage of no moving parts. It is an open system, and no additional liquid has been needed in a few hundred hours of run time.
The other engine is being used for shorter runs and currently has a 15 gallon tank. It does not have enough run time to have a good idea of the performance there. Don't want to use a fan, an extra complication. I would use another cast iron rad if I could get one.
These methods do  work for these two particular uses....one, battery charging and the other running shop tools.
"Different strokes" as we once were wont to say!
Cheers,
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project