Author Topic: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson  (Read 4053 times)

ronmar

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2017, 05:19:23 PM »
I agree! My gripe with tank cooling are the same as 38ac's. Antifreeze keeps the corrosion in the cylinder and head at bay. My 61 system uses just over 2 gal in the primary loop(smallest volume I have ever heard of) but I am running a low volume/tiny water to water flat plate heatex on mine.  The upshot is it costs me 1 gal of propolene glycol based A/F mixed at 50% in a sealed system with expansion tank...  It dosn;t corrode, it dosn't get dirty and it works... 

Tank cooling is not the best for long-term operation.  IMO it is for when you don't have something better available, and most of us do...  Tank cooling is entirely dominated by evaporation. As an example, a 55 gallon drum is 34" tall X 24" diameter.  With 210F coolant and 60F still air, an open tank should shed 3240 BTU/SQFT/HR thru evaporation.  The metal skin will only shed around 360 BTU/SQFT/HR at those temps.(around 9:1 ratio) Add it all up.  The drum sidewall is 17.8 SQ/FT, the bottom and top are 3.14 SQ/FT EA for a total metal skin area around 24 SQ/FT.  At the above temps,, an open top drum will Shed around 8600 BTU/HR if the top is on.  That is a little under 1/2 the heat output of a 6/1 at full load.  It is actually less than that, as the temp in the water decreases as you go down so less heat loss near the bottom.  The open water surface area of an open topped drum is 3.14 SQ/Ft @ 3600 BTU/HR = 11,304 BTU/HR thru radiation and evaporation for a total of 18,804 BTU/HR from a 55 gallon open topped drum.  This will decrease with higher ambient air temperatures. The open tank is really self regulating as you approach 212F the evap heat loss skyrockets, but so does the water loss...  That 18.8KBTU/HR figure is almost exactly 1/3 the BTU content of the fuel burnt by a 6/1 at full load(and very close to heat outputs I have measured from my 6/1:)) IE: a 55 gallon open topped drum will just cool a 6/1 at full load at 60F as long as you keep the water topped off(they are not foolproof either).

IMO best left for the jungle with an abundance of empty fuel drums and water...
       
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

Hugh Conway

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2017, 06:11:35 PM »
Butch said "Three valid arguments against tank/thermosyphon set up are weight, cost of antifreeze and run times at given loadings and ambient temps."
All valid considerations. In a stationary situation, especially given the weight of the engine itself, the additional weight of a full cooling tank is probably not significant. In my particular case, run times limited to around 2 hours, and cool ambient temps, a small thermosiphon tank suffices. I did eliminate my 30 gallon tank due to cost of anti-freeze and the fact that it never really got very hot in a 2 hour off-grid battery charging  run. The replacement cast iron radiator and expansion tank is just about right and uses a total of 5 gallons of coolant. It still retains the advantage of no moving parts. It is an open system, and no additional liquid has been needed in a few hundred hours of run time.
The other engine is being used for shorter runs and currently has a 15 gallon tank. It does not have enough run time to have a good idea of the performance there. Don't want to use a fan, an extra complication. I would use another cast iron rad if I could get one.
These methods do  work for these two particular uses....one, battery charging and the other running shop tools.
"Different strokes" as we once were wont to say!
Cheers,
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

glort

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2017, 01:07:05 AM »
Don't want to use a fan, an extra complication. I would use another cast iron rad if I could get one.

To my way of thinking, anything additional is an "extra complication"  A fan or a radiator in my mind are the same thing.

For the simple minded ( Big smile!)  what about a tank with a fan mounted on or near it so when it does get hot, the fan can be turned on to increase the cooling capacity of the tank?  Could be manual or with an electric thermostat.
Moving air makes a LOT of difference to the thermal gain or loss of any medium and you don't need a lot of it either.

The setup I had was similar to the one Described by 38Ac only with a small tank.  I had a 25L header tank with a radiator. I felt that would give a good measure of safety in the unlikely event the fan on the radiator failed.  Thing was with the size of the radiator I was using and being the engine was outside, pretty much any sort of a breeze would put enough air through the core to keep the engine cool.

mike90045

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2017, 01:58:58 AM »
I can add to the tank sizing.  I use a converted 30 gal gas tank (w/10 gal of antifreeze/corrosion control) and on a cool day, after 90 minutes of 2500w load, the tank is about 175F.   About that time, the batteries are full enough, and I shut down for 12 hours.  As it gets hotter, the tank will radiate more heat, and more will steam off the top, but I would guess 2 hours top, at 2500w with my 6/1 at 1,400' elevation.  I've not run much longer, since I'm trying to keep runs at high load to prevent carbon fouling.
 I do find a lot of dry fluffy carbon building up under my exhaust outlet (I have a angled plate to divert ex away from the shed) and the plate gets a 1/4" build up of fluff on it.

Tom

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2017, 03:32:01 AM »
When running the hydronic loop, the 35 gal tank barely gets warm and no water needs to be added for the season. The system is running straight water because it doesn't get cold enough in the generator shed to freeze and our spring is fairly non-corrosive.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

queenofjacks

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2017, 03:06:47 PM »
  A treasure trove of information here, gentlemen!  I have been digesting all of it.  I'm starting on my cooling tank project, today.  I'll keep you posted and will also post some photos as I go along.  I've decided to add a 110V fan blowing down and across the top of the drum for those extended run times.  We'll see -! --- Cheers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Charlie
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 03:08:49 PM by queenofjacks »
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glort

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2017, 04:02:39 AM »

You don't seem to have mentioned how long you want your Runs to be.  I understand you did 100 hours total during the cyclone but how long was each run?

My thinking here is with a fan blowing on the top of the tank, evaporation may be an issue depending on the length of your runs and loading on your engine.
You need the top hose to be under the surface of the water and if the level drops too low, you could have trouble. }If you are only going to leave the engine unattended for a few hours or so, may not be a concern.

You might want to do a test run to see what to expect. I used to dry veg oil by circulating it and having a fan on top and I could pull liters of water out of the oil in a couple of hours and that wasn't with the oil hot as you will have the water and it was in suspension in oil not fully exposed.
I would be tending to put the top hose fairly well under the top of the drum to allow for water loss.

Or you could add a simple float valve to the tank fed from another tank to keep the water level up but there's that extra complication again!  :0)
 

queenofjacks

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2017, 09:24:50 AM »
   My generator is strictly for power outages (as opposed to battery charging) -- so the length of the run depends on the length of the outage.  I typically shutdown around 11 PM and start up again around 7 AM.  I will watch the evaporation rate and deal with it as needed.  I'll put a water level indicator on the drum and maybe install an automatic fill device (a la pet feeder/waterer) -or just re-fill by hand if the evaporation rate isn't too bad.  There will be a bit of a learning curve with this system, also - but thanks to all the info here on this board, it shouldn't be too bad! ----- Charlie
Lovson 10/1  7.5KW - Power Solutions 20/2  12KW - Lister SR2 7.5KW - 2-Lister 8/1's - Lister TR2 7.5KW

glort

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2017, 10:54:15 AM »
and maybe install an automatic fill device (a la pet feeder/waterer)

Thats a better idea than the flat valve.

Pretty sure you can do it even cheaper and better still though using the same concept. 

Get a good size drum like a 25L square plastic type with the outlet at the bottom. Install a tap/ valve and a 90o Fitting with an extended bit of hose.
Fill, cap and sit the drum on the edge of the tank with the hose extending down to the minimal level you want the water in the cooling tank or slightly above. Top of the fill drum is sealed with the cap and the tap on the bottom is opened. Once the pressure is equaled, no water will flow ( except a tad for expansion) until the water level in the cooling tank drops and exposes the bottom of the hose from the drum above allowing air to get in to replace the water that will drop into cooling tank. 

To refil drum, close bottom tap, add water, replace cap and re open tap.

Fully automatic, cheap as chips, no power required,  nothing to fail.   :0)

starfire

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2017, 10:42:26 PM »
A layer of oil poured into the cooling tank cuts down evaporation enormously, been doing this for years now.

mike90045

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2017, 05:45:36 AM »
A layer of oil poured into the cooling tank cuts down evaporation enormously, been doing this for years now.

Right, BUT it reduces the heat rejection, because water can't evaporate and cool the system down.  So you have to rely only on the radiating heat from the tank walls

glort

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2017, 06:59:18 AM »

A person would be far better off to put a loose fitting or vented lid on the tank and have the fan blowing on that. Stopping the evaporation would be taking away the most powerful cooling action away from the tank.

With a lid, having a fan blow on it would allow the cooling through the phase change of the medium in evaporating and then the vapor would be re-condensed on the cooled tank lid and drop back in to continue the process. Water loss would be very minimal.

Perhaps a more ideal system would be like the refrigeration principal.  Have 2 200L drums welded together. Setup for thermo syphon on bottom drum is as normal, top drum empty. Have a fan ( If needed) blowing on the top drum only.  Water in the lower drum will stay pretty hot maintaing engine temp but at a point, start to phase change to vapor.  Vapor would rise, condense on  upper drum walls giving up latent energy and  run back down into the lower reserve.
 Would only need a tiny vent hole in the top drum to avoid pressure or vacuum occurring. Anti freeze loss would be next to zero.

We will have the ultimate cooling system figured out with all this brainstorming by topics end!


queenofjacks

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2017, 02:41:10 PM »
  I have completed my conversion from Radiator to Tank Cooling.  I removed all of the radiator stuff and installed a 55 gallon drum with a 195 degree thermostat and a valve in the lower hose to control 'gulping' and a temp gauge with sensor in a bronze tee about 3 inches out from the upper flange.  Things seem to be working fine, so far.  I did about a two hour test run today (no load) and played with the 'anti-gulping' valve - searching for the 'sweet spot'.  I think I'm pretty close -- but of course things will change when I put a load on it.  Right now, the temp gauge slowly goes up to 205 for a moment after the thermostat opens, then drifts down to 195 for a couple of minutes then slowly goes down to 160.  The temp stays there for 2 or 3 minutes, then slowly goes back up to 205 - starting the cycle all over again.  I can control the amount and timing of the temperature swing by playing with the valve.  Still experimenting - but I'm happy with things, so far.  I'm going to check actual cylinder head temp swings with an infra-red temp gauge (as soon as I get one).
  After a two hour run (no load), only the water above the upper hose got hot - about 120 degrees or so.  The lower two thirds of the drum was still cool but getting warmer ever so slowly. -- That'll change with a load, though.
  I'll report back after I've had a chance to thoroughly test things with a load after 5 or 6 hours or so.
                                                                                                                                        Cheers,
                                                                                                                                             Charlie
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 02:50:28 PM by queenofjacks »
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