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Author Topic: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson  (Read 4029 times)

queenofjacks

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Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« on: September 22, 2017, 04:32:34 PM »
  After going through Irma and her after effects, I have decided to go to the 'Cooling Tank /Thermo-Siphon' method of cooling.  My rig ran for over 100 hours with no serious problems - just some "teething and break-in" minor issues.  I used an after market radiator for a ford mustang with a cooling fan (added the fan during the outage - overheating).  After adding the radiator fan with a really nice thermostat/relay controller,  the radiator worked flawlessly - 'til the battery died.  That said, I still want to go back to the utter simplicity of a cooling tank, which is the way Mr. Lister intended for these units to be cooled.  My goal is total simplicity, reliability and 'bullet-proofness' (is that a word?).  I may even remove my electric starting system (which worked great - until the battery died!  I failed to re-adjust the voltage regulator after adding the radiator fan - minor fix) -- Hand cranking is very easy.
  Anyhow, all of this stuff is for sale - all of it was purchased new within the last 6 months.  I 'm only trying to get some of my money back - so those interested, get back to me and we'll talk.   ---- Charlie (352)201-4473
Lovson 10/1  7.5KW - Power Solutions 20/2  12KW - Lister SR2 7.5KW - 2-Lister 8/1's - Lister TR2 7.5KW

Tom

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2017, 05:39:00 PM »
In an emergency, a large tank of hot water can be useful for cooking things in plastic bags, bathing and all kinds of good stuff.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

LowGear

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2017, 06:43:56 PM »
Quote
a large tank of hot water can be useful for cooking things in plastic bags

Where else would you learn this sort of stuff?

Onward:

Once I saw the airflow induced radiator system where the exhaust is used as a venturi energy source I have been absolutely fascinated by the concept. 

I've also wondered how well six or so computer fans would serve pull-tied to a radiator?  They're really low powered compared to an auto or motorcycle based one.  Pretty cheap too.

Casey
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Witte BD Generator
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Tom

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2017, 07:30:20 PM »
It came from practical experience here. While building our remote off-grid home, the Roid was our power supply. Hot water from the tank was used for cleanup many times and although I never cooked with it, those Stoffers packaged meals designed to be boiled would have made a great lunch or dinner. Now the hot water is used to heat the floors of the house.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

ronmar

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2017, 01:50:06 AM »
A couple of computer fans would move enough air to cool a 6/1 with a modest radiator...
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

LowGear

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2017, 07:05:18 PM »
Hey Charlie,

Keep It Simple; Smarty.  I reread your post and now that I'm over my cool fantasies I think your right.  (Yes, that's a pun.)

What you going to use for a tank?  Around here we have many 100 pound propane tanks that look like they'd work really nice and once they're out of date most people just leave them at the transfer station.  At 8.3 pounds per gallon you'll want to do some solid supporting.  I'm guessing these units come in around 10 gallons or 80 pounds of water.
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Hugh Conway

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2017, 11:43:19 PM »
I am a big fan of thermosiphon cooling too. Simple. the biggest downside is that if you live in a place that has freezing weather (I do), the required amount of anti-freeze starts getting expensive fast.
I started out using a 30 gallon cooling tank. It would never fully heat up in my usual 2 hour battery (about 3Kw load) charging runs. Now I use a 10 fin cast iron radiator with an expansion tank on that engine. Heats up quickly and does not overheat. I suppose your ambient temperatures and loading would determine the amount of cooling capacity required. Lister recommended something like a 50 Imperial gallon cooling tank with a 6/1. Seems like overkill, but maybe not if you are running 24/7 in a hot climate.
I have a old 15 gallon galvanized milk can with fittings welded on as a cooling tank for my Dursley. Have not seen enough run time on that one to give a good opinion. Same thermosiphon set-up, and I do not anticipate running it for long periods. Should be fine based on the results with a 30 gallon tank on the Listeroid.
Our winter domestic hot water is produced by a thermosiphon through a coil in my woodstove.  it has worked  flawlessly for many years, as has the listeroid cooling system.

Cheers,
Hugh
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glort

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2017, 01:31:36 AM »
  My rig ran for over 100 hours with no serious problems - just some "teething and break-in" minor issues. 

To my way of thinking, it seems a shame to get rid of a perfectly good working system because of one little problem that is put down to a teething issue anyway. Put in a self regulating alternator or a small solar controller to keep the battery topped up. Volt meter sounds like a good idea too.  Now it's adjusted and you are aware of the potential problem, even with no changes it's unlikely to happen again.

Thing that occurs to me is you now have 100 hours testing and experience with this system. Start changing it and what's the next teething problem you are going to have? Lets face it, this was human error not that of the system. Now the human factor has been reduced, I'd think maybe a lot better to stick with it than change it an introduce another potential problem next time.

Sometimes I think we get a bit carried away with "Simple" and get too busy looking at one thing and forget about others.
I like the fan radiator setup and I think it's as reliable as anything else in a system. You can't make anything bullet proof at all. There is always going to be a hose that can leak, split etc, a tank that can crack, rust, leak, fall over, an AC alternator that can stop working for a heap of reasons and there is the possibility of engine failure itself.  I think you hedge your bets and that's the best you can do.

As for your fan stopping, I think that just needs a little re think. If the engine was running and you had power, sorry but to my mind a well designed thought out setup should be able to run that fan while ever the engine is.  If you had AC a battery charger or transformer can be run to power that fan.  Don't need 20A to run it flat out, thing will get by fine on about 2A. Pretty much as long as it's turning too fast to follow the blades with your eyes it will keep the engine cool with that sort of capacity radiator.

Self regulated alternators have been around a LONG time now so the problem of not adjusting a regulator to keep a battery charged should not be an issue.  Alternators run thousands of hours and a cheap as chit to buy at wreckers etc so no problem to have a spare and a couple of belts etc.
Used radiators and fans are also cheap as so not problem having one of those spare either. Those fans last an eternity as well and anyone that thinks fan failure is a significant drawback to the system I would say really does not have enough experience or knowledge of the things. They last 20 years on vehicles and even if they are not powered up all the time they are pretty much turning whenever the car is moving forward. They aren't big sellers in wrecking yards because it's very rare for them to need to be replaced other than through accident damage.

Lister had setups with radiators that had fans driven by belt off the engine.  Again, engine turns, engine is cooled. all you need is a spare belt but at a pinch you could use rope, pair of the Mrs stockings, some Braided rag, whatever.

There are a lot of advantages to the radiator setup just as there are the tank route. 

It would seem for tank cooling a thermostat would be a good idea. That way you could over size the tank and not have to worry.... apart from the thermo jamming of course.
I have thought of having the exhaust blowing onto a tank from a distance. If you measure the temp back from the exhaust you ill see it mixes with the surrounding air fast and is much cooler. Further back you go, cooler the air gets. Should be able to work out a happy medium where the air is cool enough to stop the thing overheating but close enough to help warm up the water and maintain it so it's never too cold.
I think straight out of the exhaust would work but very easy to put a larger section of pipe around the outside to make an inducer and save distance.

I did a combination system on my roid. Had the car radiator and fan but also T'd to a 25L open header tank.  I was surprised how much heat thermoed into the header tank  and I suspect it could have tun a pretty long time just with that. The thermosyphon meant water was pulled in through the radiator and that alone with no fan took out a reasonable amount of heat.  I thought if any sort of airflow was induced, even with some sort of paddles on the flywheel to create some draft, the radiator that was designed to cool an engine of 100 Kw should have plenty of margin to cool something 4 Kw.
I had the radiator at a slight angle so the air would draft up through it. Maybe even a tall cardboard shroud would induce enough draft to keep the thing cool on it's own.

queenofjacks

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2017, 08:36:26 PM »
  Everything that you say has merit, Glort -- but, everything that you are saying seems to add complexity to the system and my goal is simplicity.  My Starter/generator worked fine --- the battery slowly died (and fan slowly died) because I failed to re-adjust the voltage regulator after adding the cooling fan.  I didn't feel like doing that in the middle of the night - (time consuming) - hot 'roid, hurricane and all that!  Disconnecting the drive belt and hooking up the battery charger was a lot easier and quicker.  The 100+ hour run showed me some of the weak points (or less reliable points) in my system.  The fan didn't fail, the fan controller didn't fail, the radiator didn't fail, the starter/generator didn't fail - (but any of them could have).  Going to a tank system eliminates all of those things.  A 55 gallon drum, some fittings and hose, a 195 degree automotive thermostat, a temperature gauge - all with a low risk of failure --- just add water and some anti-freeze (I'm in Florida, so it doesn't take much) and the problem is solved!  I'll leave the starter/generator in place - but disconnect the belt.  It's there for when I  get too old or feeble to hand crank it!  BTW - the starter/generator works very well --- but it's still another belt driving something -- another potential failure item!  A hand crank is hard to beat when it comes to simplicity and reliability!! ------ Cheers,
                                                                                                                                                                                                   Charlie
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 12:40:27 AM by queenofjacks »
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BruceM

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2017, 10:39:16 PM »
The only problem with tanks for cooling is the large volume ($)) of anitifreeze in colder climates.

For a generator system (electric power for fan) for a cold climate, a Honda Civic or other small thermosiphon radiator with a couple muffin fans (per Ronmar's setup) or a cast iron radiator are neck and neck for simplest and cheapest solution, though induced draft isn't far behind.  Alas, few old cast iron radiators to be found for cheap in Arizona.

mikenash

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2017, 03:40:29 AM »

Our winter domestic hot water is produced by a thermosiphon through a coil in my woodstove.  it has worked  flawlessly for many years, as has the listeroid cooling system.

Cheers,
Hugh
[/quote]

Hugh, I have had thermosiphon wetback hot water systems running on solid-fuel stoves ("coal ranges") in three successive houses for over 30 years and am just now building one for a fourth house.  The nearest thing to a problem of any kind I have ever had is simply a surplus of free hot water - even when we had teenagers at home.  I just love the woodstove and the wetback

Cheers, Mike

glort

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2017, 04:32:01 AM »
  Everything that you say has merit, Glort -- but, everything that you are saying seems to add complexity to the system and my goal is simplicity.

Trust me, I'm a very simple guy   :-[  BUT, I do not believe that " complexity, a relative term, necessarily has to add unreliability, quite the opposite in fact.

I think there is " Complexity" and over complexity which are different things.  Over complexity was like what I saw so much of in the veg fuels game.
It did my head in the lengths and trouble people would go to in order to prevent problems that NEVER happened they just dreamed up or were paranoid over and in doing so, added another dozen failure points.  And it is no stretch at all to say that in trying to prevent those theoretical problems with that added system, they dreamed up new problems that created which they then had to come up with another idiotic solution to further increasing the chances of failure.

This morning I added an arduino Controller to my aeroponic system. ( Like hydroponic only different.) For the last few weeks I have gone out and simply plugged the pump in for a bit to water the plants . About as simple and failsafe as it gets. Except for the Human factor.
Few days the wind has come up, dried things out and the plants have been wilted time I went out to turn the pump on again.
The controller requires a power supply, I added a light sensor so it waters far less frequently at night and I will add a temp sensor so it waters more frequently when the weather is warm. Really needs a wind sensor as well and I'm thinking of adding an airflow mass sensor off a car on the roof with a tail to catch the prevailing breeze windmill style.

Is this more complexity than me going out and turning on the pump? Obviously.
Is it a lot more likley to keep my plants alive and reduce the chance of me forgetting to water them and greater still, someone else while I'm away? You betcha! Is there a chance something could fail? Of course BUT, at the end of the day, those plants have a far better chance relying on that little computer to take care of them than they do me.

And that's what I look at. Risk minimisation and what I am comfortable/ confident in and understand how something works so I can fix it.
I get where you are coming from but when I read you want to keep it simple but put a thermostat in the system, I get a cringe feeling. I have had and seen some real problems caused by thermostats.  They can fail and cause major problems that you don't even know about till it's too late.
It would seem to me that your system worked really well and all you need to do is fine tune it by adding an automatic voltage regulator/ charge controller to the battery and you have a very reliable system.

Not trying to change what you want to do to what I'd do but just pointing out the variations on what we are respectively comfortable with.

With things that can fail, as you point out with belts and I with the thermostat, my veg oil capers taught me something there too along with something I already knew.
One of the big things in the veg game was fuel hose that didn't leak or go soft or break down.  In reality, there is none. It all fails just some slower than others.  Some however are astronomically priced but eventually, have to be replaced.
With this realisation I thought of aircraft maintenance. There is no eliminate failure points or making something bullet proof, they work on the principal they know EVERYTHING is going to fail sooner or later so they just change it out before it does. IF something is good for 1000 hours+ they change it at 500 or 250 or whatever. Not about max life, it's about max reliability.  When they overhaul and aircraft engine it's not because the thing is worn out and down on power, thing is still virtually perfect and showing minimal wear. They rebuild it so it's always in spec and never near needing repairs.

I did the same with my fuel line in my truck. Used cheap arse stuff that I concluded had a reliable life of over 18 months. So I change it every 12. Costs bugger all, takes no time to do and I do it when I do my yearly service between Xmas and new year when I do diff oils, change brake fluid, CV joints and wheel bearings and all those other once a year things as well as that quarterly oil change etc.

the same can be done on our engines. maybe do the hoses every 3 years whether they need it or not, change the thermo... swap out a belt if you have one, ....what ever. I also always keep new spares at the ready as well as the old parts. I know I'm going to do the fan belt on the car every year so there is a new one in the shed plus a couple if have changed in the truck just in case.  The PS and AC belts are not critical so they get done every 3 years.

Myself, I have found this " Aircraft" mentality works well for me. Nothing ever fails, the cost of replacing serviceable items is insignificant and one that would be far less than a breakdown and towing fee not to mention inconvenience, and I feel very confident that things are reliable and I don't have to worry.  I'd check the oil and water and jump in the thing and drive it anywhere without a second thought.

Rather than trying to make things never fail, maybe looking at them from the POV they WILL fail but changing them out at intervals short enough to make it a virtual impossibility may be a way to have your cake and eat it too!  :0)




starfire

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2017, 06:00:42 AM »
Well, im a great believer in redundancy. One Lister swings two car alternators, unlikely both will fail at once. I have seperate inverters for house lighting, my electronic workshop, the  240v  service outlets, and a fourth powers my engineering workshop lighting. The Petter runs a 6kva alternator, this also has a backup battery charger made from an arc welding transformer. A third 2kva petrol is my last standby unit when everything else fails.
On that day, i will commit suicide, as my life skills have clearly degenerated to the point where even drugs wont hide  the fact im obviously past it. I have two cars and a motorbike, so will never be stranded. I even have two houses in case one burns down...
A few backup wives would be handy, this I have yet to manage.... they tend to fight among themselves and nothing important like cooking gets done...... they appear not to have any sort of standby mode......

cujet

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2017, 10:43:15 AM »
I power my 12V automotive fan with a 12V transformer, rectifier and large filter capacitor. Drives the fan from one 120v leg of the generator head.

I tried the imported electronic power supplies, but they fail over time.

The simple setup is 100% reliable.
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38ac

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Re: Radiator Setup for 10/1 Lovson
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2017, 11:39:54 AM »
Three valid arguments against tank/thermosyphon set up are weight, cost of antifreeze and run times at given loadings and ambient temps. If none of those is a consideration then it is hard to beat. Somewhere in the manuals there is a spec sheet for tank volume, ambient temps and loading, if i can find it I will post the information. A 6/1 cannot be operated around the clock at full load in warm weather with a 55 gallon drum of water as it's cooling system,, that I do remember. The tank cooling set ups in most of the old engine manuals were for 8 hours running at something like 3/4 loading at temps around 75 degrees. I recommend a thermosyphon/radiator/ fan set up for most of my customers. How the fan is powered varies with engine usage. 110V AC is pretty simple if the engine is running a generator but requires some switch gear that can get spendy unless you shop diligently.  12 Volt set ups are simple and usually are powered by a 10SI Delco alternator and of course you must have a battery of some sort. I have also set up a couple with mechanical driven fans for my bearded friends that have a disdain for things electric ;)

The most interesting setup I have run across was delivered with my 31HP Blackstone MP which was part of a prime power generator setup  when both Lister and Blackstone were owned by Mirrlees. There was two complete cooling loops both tank and radiator. The primary cooling was thermosiphon via approximately 100 gallon tank set vertically. The tank also had two additional inlet/outlets that were plumbed to a radiator with fan and thermostats. In operation the tank cooled the engine until the tank temp reached a given range. At that point a thermostat would open allowing water to circulate from the tank to the radiator via thermosiphon thus giving any needed additional cooling capacity, if things continues to warm up another thermostat controlled the radiator fan. In operation the engine heated the tank and if the tank got too warm the thermostatically controlled radiator loop helped cooled the tank and if needed a fan would cool the radiator. Remember that this was a prime power set and was purchased by a customer whom cost was no object,,, LOL.
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