Listeroid cranking forces----

[hotater]

  There has been quite a bit of discussion about the 'proper' way to start the 6-1 engines, and I assume the bigger ones, too.  I tried again yesterdoy to wind my Listeroid up tight enough to be able to remove the crank handle then disengage the valve lifter to start it.  NO way!

So, I started doing some experimenting.

I always shut down by just lifting the fuel lever to cut the fuel.  I don't lift the exhaust valve until I get ready to start it again by rocking the flywheel back until I can re-engage the lifter.

 On shut-off of fuel my  engine winds down for 16 seconds, then bounces between compression strokes for 3 more.   A total of 19 seconds from fuel shut-off to full stop.  I did it four times and the results were same each time.
  I tried to count the number of compression strokes the engine turned before stopping, but it's tough.  I got 49 three differernt times, though.  That's pretty close
  I can't crank my engine through compression from a dead stop with the handle.  I can lean on the flywheel and it'll leak through after about 25 seconds, but that's a very subjective measure.

I *can* get it going fast enough to crank on the first revolution by letting the injector squeek once then removing the lifter, but its' a LOT easier to accelerate slowly and let three squeeks occur then throw the lever.

The ONLY time my engine has ever failed to fire and run on the first possible stroke was when the headgasket was blown and the cylinder would have water leakage that had to be pumped out first.  Then it'd start on the second stroke, but blow water in my ear.

I also got a new toy from ebay.  It's a photo-laser, non-contacting tachometer that works from reflecting tape on the flywheel.  Great tool, but pretty much useless after you 'shoot' every engine on the place.   My Listeroid is running at 660 RPM with a sag to 658 as the genhead is kicks in.

  Just for grins I decided to find out how SLOW it would go.  The governor gets VERY mushy and uncertain at about 400 RPM so I ran the fuel rack by hand down to a low of 245 RPM.  Talk about COOL sounding!!  Like a hit or miss engine at that speed.
  It would be great to find a large bore twin that ran at that speed and gave about 12 HP.  I'd  be very interested in that!

Comments welcome.

[GuyFawkes]

The start-o-matic stops by actuating the solenoid, that closes the rack and inserts the decompressor at the same time

If you just insert the decompressor it will shut down with an open rack and inject some fuel which will remain unburnt, doesn't actually make much difference in the grand scheme of things.

my mate who picked up the old start-o-matic set rang me today at lunchtime, he used a funnel that he uses for brake bleeding as a fuel reservoir, bled up to the injector, cranked and she started first time (after priming the oil pump of course) which is pretty good considering it has been left sat there in a sorry state for several years before hand, first thing I heard on the phone was the mellow thump.

hotater, get your originals over from england, you won't regret it.

[Julian]

 >I can't crank my engine through compression from a dead stop with the handle.

I think you can if you let it bounce back off compression, keeping a loose hold of the handle as it bounces off compression backwards then give it everything you've got! (torn shoulder muscles included)

[dkwflight]

Hi I just cranked my twin this morning thinking about what has been said lately about cranking these engines. I have very good compression since it is new with very few hours on it. I doubt I would have the patience to keep a force on the engine long enough to pull it through compression.
I end up turniong the engine through 6 or 7 turns gaining speed on each turn. When I reach up and throw the fuel cutoff lever and then the first valve lifter. When it fires on the first cyl I then slide the  crank off the shaft stub. After sucessfully removeing the crank. Since I had a problem with the crank staying on the stub after start, I make sure to lube and keep a good grip on the crank!  I reach under the exhaust pipe and throw the 2nd valve lifter.

Ps I lube the shaft stub with oil every time.

Dennis

[GerryH]

Most of our engines have more compression than the well worn British ones, and we don't use a COV so, yes they do take a bit of muscle. A friend of mine located us a bunch of Brush generators that came off of Listers used in remote communities. They have a 24 start/charge winding built into them and were designed to start a 3 cylinder direct coupled unit. This will be my choice for replacement of the PS 5kw unit on mine. I'll hang up the crank and only use it if the battery is dead.

[GuyFawkes]

Most of our engines have more compression than the well worn British ones,

balls

just because an english lister is old doesn't mean it's lost compression

just been speaking to my mate again, now he actually has his own and has started it, he is starting to understand.

unless you own and use an english lister you don't understand

with both hands on a 25" flywheel i might be able to ease it through compression, while gases slowly seep past the rings, but it is so slow who'd bother

I've run mine down to 100 rpm steady, which is as slow as I can measure with my old smiths mechanical tacho, and it is as even a beat as my heart, five firing strokes every six seconds

[hotater]

When I shut down while ago I did the  'SOM way' and gut the fuel rack and engaged the valve lifter at the same time.  It took 34 seconds to stop.
  I'd still like to know how ya'll GOrillas can wind one up fast enough to crank it without the handle!      Icould do it if I could use both hands and had somebody else runnnig the valve lifter, I think.

[GuyFawkes]

When I shut down while ago I did the  'SOM way' and gut the fuel rack and engaged the valve lifter at the same time.  It took 34 seconds to stop.
  I'd still like to know how ya'll GOrillas can wind one up fast enough to crank it without the handle!      Icould do it if I could use both hands and had somebody else runnnig the valve lifter, I think.

two fingers in one of the flywheel cutouts will just about do it, put it this way, I wouldn't start it that way by choice, but I'd be happy to bet you money I couldn't afford to lose that I could do it

my mate who just bought one yesterday and started it today said on the phone when he hit the decompressor to shut down it took him some time to realise it was actually slowing down....

I will do a webcam video os start / up to speed / rundown, that way it can be timed exactly for each stage.

[Tom]

I started my Listeroid on Saturday with the crank it up to speed, remove the crank then flip the compression release. It worked on the first try. But it was a lot more work and it was already 100 degrees out so it might not work when it is cold.

It is a lot easier to crank for 3 clicks of the injector, flip the compression release and pull the engine through the compression stroke. Then take my time to carefully slide the crank off the shaft.

[Halfnuts]

Tom,

I think perhaps if we had engines with the SOM flywheels then things would be different. 

BTW, I e-mailed David Edgington and asked him if he knew the weight of the spoked flywheels on the original Lister 6/1s.  He said they weighed 120 lbs.  Mine are 125 lbs so at least the Indian versions are true to the original in that respect.  Like you, I find it easiest to crank the engine for two or three pings, then flip off the compression release, pull it through the compression stroke and remove the handle as the engine chugs to life.  That, too, is the way the Indian manual recommends starting the engine. 

I'd sure like the heavier flywheels, but that would make my engine much more difficult to move/relocate, etc.  Hefting a 125 lb flywheel is one thing.  Doing the same with a 300 lb flywheel isn't as easily done.

Halfnuts

[kyradawg]

Peace&Love , Darren

[hotater]

There's plenty of room, but the counterweights might be a problem.   

[kyradawg]

Peace&Love , Darren

[Andre Blanchard]

Had some time last night to make a few videos of starting and coast down.

Starting from two different angles.
http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i208/andre_b/Listeroid/?action=view&current=Start1.flv
http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i208/andre_b/Listeroid/?action=view&current=Start2.flv

Coast down
http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i208/andre_b/Listeroid/?action=view&current=Coastdown.flv

A comfortable handle grip.



And just because I had the camera out, using a shop vac filter for an air filter.

[hotater]

The battle of the crank handles!!!