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Author Topic: testing governor, voltage regulator: video of meter  (Read 13513 times)

tyssniffen

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testing governor, voltage regulator: video of meter
« on: March 14, 2017, 06:06:10 PM »
well, I continue to be confused.

standard flywheels on my 6/1, standard 8" pulley on my ST3K.

got it up to 650rpm, as you can see by 59.9/60 hertz...  then put different loads on it. 

it's a space heater plugged into a standard outdoor rated (orange) extension cord. probably a 25 footer.

you can see the hertz drop, the voltage drop?  etc.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVBXiuuAdWo

why can't this thing hold steady?   

one idea is that it used to have the stover wheels on it, and the governor weights might be different??  but why would that matter? 
6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.

dieselgman

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Re: testing governor, voltage regulator: video of meter
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2017, 06:40:26 PM »
Some lag in response is normal for these things... the governors are just not that quick or sensitive. A 6/1 at 650 rpm will be less than ideal for maintaining a rock steady speed with varying loads. The usual method is to start the adjustments around about 62Hz with no load, then the dip will be less likely to result in loaded voltage and frequency being below spec.

dieselgman
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Hugh Conway

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Re: testing governor, voltage regulator: video of meter
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2017, 08:09:02 PM »
@tyssniffen
As Gary says, could be just in the nature of the beast.
However, I have seen that my Hz, voltage drop if I have belt slippage under high load.
My start-o-matic Dursley will not hold a tight HZ range, holding about 6Hz difference from no load to full load, whereas my listeroid will hold within 1Hz from no load to full load.
I have experimented quite a lot with getting the listeroid to hold a narrow range, and the effort has paid off.
The Dursley has not had that attention, has the original gov spring and no mods. I will be working on that when it is in place to power up my new workshop.
Check out the link to gov mods in the WOK, they do work in most instances.

Don't know id you have your gen wired for 120/240 or 120 only, but if 120/240, you might see better result with a balanced load.
Make sure your extension cord is at least 14ga or you will get additional resistance with the high load from a heater.....though that may not make any difference with your RPM drop.
Cheers,
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
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carlb23

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Re: testing governor, voltage regulator: video of meter
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2017, 11:09:07 AM »
on my 6/1 i usually start with no load at 62 hz and it settles back to just about 60 at 2k load.

38ac

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Re: testing governor, voltage regulator: video of meter
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2017, 03:16:55 PM »
Hi again, I dont think you are confused as much as you have unrealistic expectations from your engine governing.  My hearing impediment prevents me from understanding much of what you are saying in the video but only an electronic governor can keep  Hrtz exactly where you dial it.  The mechanical governor requires an RPM drop to know that a change in rack position is needed  thus it is never going to bring it back to the no load RPM, the technical term is governor droop. Some governors are better than others but it isnt going to stay rock steady. 
That being said a 2 Hrtz drop from no load to full load is pretty good performance from a CS / 'roid governor and as Gary said it is standard procedure to set them at no load to 62.  Also as  Hugh said much has been written on springs and linkage to help you get as good as you can get. For my personal usage and the sets I have put together my goal is 2Hrtz drop from no load to 2.5 KW.  The way a stock ST type head regulates the voltage is going to drop when RPM drops, various electronic regulation modifications will fixvoltage variations but not the Hrtz drop which is strictly a factor of generator shaft speed. Your flywheels have nothing to do with what you  experiencing. Heavier flywheels would hold the RPM for only a second or two, in any case within 5 seconds or less of load applied the RPM is going to be the same with heavy or light flywheels.
Butch
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tyssniffen

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Re: testing governor, voltage regulator: video of meter
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2017, 07:15:59 PM »
thank you all for the responses. 

I get that I can't expect perfect hertz holding, but my problem is not trying to run a small space heater on my shop bench. I'm trying to push AC into my house inverter/charger (outback) and when I turn that on (which is a ways from the gen but wired with HUGE wire... like 4 gauge or something. the copper is at least as thick as a pencil, so no voltage drop)

the house is sensitive enough that the variability of  3-4 hertz freaks it out and it shuts it down.   well, I don't know if it's the herts or the voltage drop that's messing up the house.

I redid the spring with that standard mod so that it doesn't bind as well.

and I've investigated the HELL out of belt slippage, and I don't think that's it. 

I'm confused by how the volts go down as well...

this whole set up isn't worth the insanity if I can't push power into the house.   and, for reference, I had another ST3K, without the digital AVR - that is, it was analogue - and that one DID keep up with what the house wanted... until I destroyed the wiring in a different scenario.    and I have a gas gen *(4000w max) I push power into the house with and the house takes it no problem.   

 ???
6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.

BruceM

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Re: testing governor, voltage regulator: video of meter
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2017, 08:18:25 PM »
Homebrew generator sets are for handy folks who don't mind working out problems methodically.  If that's not you, I don't think a Listeroid or old engine is suitable.

You never provide enough technical detail to be able pinpoint your issue, but my initial response was similar to dieselgman's, who posted first while I was still writing.  In this post, you express your frustrations but again, not enough detail to help.  If you have an AVR on this thing, your harmonic output is inadeqate maintain voltage, so you may have to change the wiring on the AVR to use the mains for excitation.   If you don't have an AVR,  it's normal to have voltage drop with rpm drop. 

Compatibility with an unknown to us inverter/charger unit is another kettle of fish entirely. First crank up the no-load rpm a bit and see if that solves it.  Second, your AC waveform quality may have severe ratcheting which confuses some frequency sensing circuitry. I don't recall if you did show us your waveform via oscilloscope or not.  Without that, it's hard to be specific, but you can try putting 40-60 uF total of motor run capacitors across the output to see if that makes your waveform good enough for your inverter/charger. 

Finding a skilled local old engine/generator guy to help you get this going might be a way to go, too. 

Best Wishes,
Bruce

Quinnf

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Re: testing governor, voltage regulator: video of meter
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2017, 12:41:00 AM »
Hi Tys,

That IS a 6/1, not an 8/1, right?  Are you running it at 650 rpm?  If you are, then it should hold lots steadier than that.  Both my machines lost maybe a Hz or 1.5 Hz at near full load.  Flywheel type won't make any difference.

What you're seeing is a governor that won't.  The springs and possibly the governor weights are going to be different on a 6/1, 8/1 and 10/1 engine.  And unless you are running the engine at its design speed, the combination of weights and springs won't be optimal for maintaining speed, and you'll see exactly what you're seeing.

So, again I ask, are you running that engine at its intended speed?

Some folks bump up their idle RPMs a little so that when the usual load is applied, the alternator will be running about 60 Hz.  The governors aren't perfect on these engines, because they weren't really intended to be running generators.  But it should regulate lots better than what your video shows.

Quinn

Another thought comes to mind.  If you have any undue friction in the throttle linkage, or extra sloppy connections, that could also cause what you're seeing. 
Ashwamegh 6/1, PowerSolutions 6/1 "Kit" engine, and a Changfa R175a that looks like a Yanmar I once knew

EdDee

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Re: testing governor, voltage regulator: video of meter
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2017, 07:31:17 AM »
Hi Tys,

Another thing comes to mind... And something that I have a little experience with in the "intelligent charger/inverter" side too... If you have had a laugh and a read at the "Listeroid Chronicles" thread, buried deep inside it is a recount of a bit of time I spent playing around with pulley ratios and engine speeds. Granted, my roids are rated to up to 1000RPM, but I dont run them at that - I have tried to keep them at more "traditional" 500-850 RPM speeds...

This is what I found:

I have a few "Intelligent" APC UPS's dotted around the premises - they are capable of being set as to input line power quality sensitivity - this boils down to a whopping 3 choices that you can set them to - Low/Medium or High Sensitivity as to input line power quality..... I have set all of them to being as tolerable as they can, ie Low sensitivity, of the incoming line power quality - This sensitivity is regarding input frequency as well as input voltage variations...

What I found was that with the roids running slowly - 500 to 600 RPM, the frequency variations due to the suck/squeeze/bang/blow of the big 4 stroke cycle drove the charger units nuts - they couldn't cope with the short interval frequency differences and rejected the incoming power as being unstable, subsequently shutting down the chargers until things in the input mains side cleaned up... This was with or without AVR's installed, 2 different alternators, 2 different roids, 2 different sets of flywheels, even with one roid having a double set of flywheels. The power was usable for everything else, pumps, fridges, aircon, tv's stereos etc... no problem there... just the damn inverters complained...

I then upped the revs on TM1 - and eventually settled on around 750RPM as giving about the lowest RPM with adequate quality - TM1 has "Stover" type wheels, a single set. He can go down to about 700RPM without the UPS's complaining about power quality (From a frequency POV).. Now with TM2 I started playing about quite a bit - Eventually installing 2 sets of similar wheels and reducing the revs and changing the pulley ratios until the UPS's started complaining - Then upped the revs by 50 to 650RPM and have left him at that. Bear in mind, TM2 has 2 sets of Stover wheels on him - Plenty of rotating mass to keep things smooth. (Or so I thought!!)

Regarding governor springs et al, I have been there, done the mods, smoothed things out and still run into stability problems due to the above. The couple of Hz/Volts up or down over the long term while operating does not seem to make a big difference - the most notable effect I have found is in the short term frequency differences over a few cycles... I have not been able to do much about it, but did improve matters a bit (with other downsides though) by reducing compression ratios and retarding injection timing... Ultimately, and after many 100's of hours of running the things at varying speeds, I have come to the conclusion that on the single cylinder beasts, there is not much more that can be done to clean up the short term frequency variations except by upping the revs a bit, or increasing rotating mass - Although it has been done before, I am not wild about it, you can add a flywheel to the alternator side of things to smooth things out a bit...

Before you go and wind open the governor and start changing pulley ratios, ensure your wheels are capable of taking the extra energy....

Hope this helps...

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
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38ac

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Re: testing governor, voltage regulator: video of meter
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2017, 05:04:06 PM »
Because the subject is of high interest I pulled some literature and scanned it.  R.A. Lister did not claim  that CS governing would meet either class A or B specification but instead told service and sales to expect 5% governing. This means a 5% drop from no load to full load. An engine set to 650 RPM no load should be expected to be operating at  617 RPM when pulling 6HP. Or an engine set to run 800 RPM should be running about 760 RPM when pulling 8HP If you need 650 or 800 RPM at full load then the engine would have to be set about 5% over those speeds at no load.  In generator terms this means when either engine is adjusted to 60 Hz no load you will have 57Hz at full load. My experience is that a CS or  the clones will do a bit better than 5% with stock springs and adjusted correctly.  Also note that as stated earlier that 5% governing is when operated at rated RPMs and that governor droop increases as  RPMs are dropped below spec.  As with all specifications from RA Lister you must very carefully  read the material note that suddenly applied loads will cause RPM to drop as much as 10% before recovering to spec.


Another item of interest is the  section that lists the changes needed  to vary the RPMs on the various Lister diesel engines.  Most Lister diesel engines require a change of weights and springs  to vary the operating RPMs.  Note that here I have only posted the page that pertains to CS and JP types and it states that RA Lister did not change the weights from 5/1 to 8/1.  Lister literature has it's share of typos (note that although 8/1 is listed that RPMs listed are 600 and 650?) So, to confirm this and to recheck my facts on the matter I pulled the cam end cover on both 6/1  and VA (same RPM as 8/1) engines that are in stock at the shop and the weights are indeed the same.  The 6/1 is 1943, the VA is much later. Did Lister change things later on? I dont know? I could not find my 8/1 parts book to confirm numbers. . For giggles I checked 6/1 and 8/1 clones I have at the shop and they have same weights. Pictures have been posted of lighter weights, all Indian I believe?  Pure guessing would be they were intended for the 1000 RPM versions? Maybe some found there way into 800 RPM and maybe even 650 RPM engines because that is what was laying in the box at the  assembly "plant"  Again just guessing on that.

« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 05:19:08 PM by 38ac »
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dieselgman

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Re: testing governor, voltage regulator: video of meter
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2017, 05:26:15 PM »
Stellar input Butch!!!  ;)

Confirmation of the experiences we have had - and allows proper adjustment of expectations in general.

dieselgman
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32 coupe

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Re: testing governor, voltage regulator: video of meter
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2017, 11:33:00 PM »

probibly nothing to do with anything but what elevation are you ?


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tyssniffen

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Re: testing governor, voltage regulator: video of meter
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2017, 06:00:51 PM »


again, thank you for the patient replies.


I am willing to fight through these challenges, and have been dealing with different ones on this machine for 10 years now. 

This is a 6/1... all info I have ever had about it says it is a 6/1.  it came with the stover wheels, and I got the wagon wheels and put them on.

AVR:

this is a new ST3K from Central Georgia Generator with what I believe is an AVR built into the control box on top.

Capacitors:

I have done the whole capacitor thing, and that didn't help. Though during this video experiment, I did not have the capacitors hooked in. 

RPM:

I have an 8 inch pulley on the alternator.  I have the standard (22"? can't remember) wagon wheel flywheels on there. I have it wired for 120/60hz.  Thus, the machine should be running at 650 rpm, no?

Spring binding:

I have created my version of the spring modification to avoid that gov spring binding story people suggest. 

Elevation:

I'm at about 2000 feet above sea level, in an area that doesn't have freezing temps. 

I will post another video going at 62hz, with a little more visual on the machine.
6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.

listeroil

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Re: testing governor, voltage regulator: video of meter
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2017, 07:22:50 PM »
The weights on the left hand side are from a 1958 8/1 engine.  
The weights on the right hand side are from a 1962 6/1 engine both Start-O-Matics.
The part numbers are different.
6/1 governor weight      003-00167
8/1 governor weight      008-06106
The 8/1 weights are clearly smaller.

I agree on the statements to increase the revs.  I own and have used 6/1 and 8/1 engined generators and only use the 8/1 now they produce far better electric with none of the dreaded flicker. Even the genuine 6/1 engined Start-O-Matic with massive flywheels and an extremely heavy alternator pulley still produce flicker.  It not really surprising  that a modern inverter/charger will have problems with such an up and down electric supply. The 8/1 engines running at 850 RPM produce flicker free electric and the engines sound real nice as well.  In fact I think the engines sound better at 850 RPM not strained like the 6/1 sounds.

Mick




« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 07:34:56 PM by listeroil »

BruceM

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Re: testing governor, voltage regulator: video of meter
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2017, 07:27:17 PM »
I suggest looking and seeing what you have "in the box"; is there an AVR or shall we continue to guess?!

If you do have an AVR it's not working properly as voltage should not vary more than a few volts from no load to full load.  CGG normally wires them to use the harmonic winding as the source for exciting the rotor field coil.  In your case, either your AVR is defective, you don't actually have one,  or your harmonic winding output is inadequate to keep the AVR satisfied.  The AVR can only limit it's input source, it can't make excitation power from thin air.

Tom does have documentation of sorts for hooking it the AVR up with mains output as the excitation source to the AVR.  That may solve your voltage sag problem assuming your AVR is still working.  

The sag on load issue is nothing but mechanical governor and only by twiddling with that will it improve.  I think 3 Hz change from full load to no load is more average.  If you don't have that, you should try different springs on the governor after first trying adjusting the linkage per 38ac's recent post.

Someone might be able to help more if you specify what your make and model of inveter/charger you have.  Have you looked at the manual to see what the input AC voltage/frequency specifications are?  This would be a logical step on that important issue.  

An optical tachometer would solve your rpm question.  I can't imagine not having one with one of these engines.