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Author Topic: Parts sources  (Read 9578 times)

listard-jp2

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Re: Parts sources
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2017, 12:58:42 PM »
When I read a forum thread like this, and see the responses generated when something like this appears:

Hey Blueflame one of the leading exporters of lister diesel engine and its spare parts. We can provide you all spare parts of lister diesel engine. You can check this out on www.crosswordagro.com

You guys crack me up, when you shoot these type of posts down in flames, but yet you still continue to buy parts originating from this part of the world.

If like me you had access to the comprehensive materials test reports produced by ListerPetter, and original Lister CS drawings. You would be able to appreciate that good customer service and honest dealings from Indian suppliers are not the whole story. More importantly it is what is not immediately apparent with Indian cloned Lister CS items, such as: Incorrect material composition, forging flash re-introduced into forging causing hidden defects, incorrect heat treatment, poor surface finish, dimensional errors, etc.

The raw material feed stock for the vast majority of these products is sourced directly from the Alang ship breaking yards located not far from Rajkot. Therefore the micro foundries producing the raw castings and forgings often have limited or non existent material assay capabilities, hence whatever alloying content the finished product has, it would largely be determined by the quality of the scrap steel / cast iron feed stock.

** I do concede that certain Indian sourced Lister CS spares are of an acceptable quality, such as bearings, valves, piston rings, and fuel injection equipment. Which is largely due to these companies having exposure to large Western markets, and who's customers insist upon having  robust QC procedure's in place, combined with financial penalty clauses written into contracts when the required quality is not produced.

glort

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Re: Parts sources
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2017, 01:30:09 PM »

You guys crack me up, when you shoot these type of posts down in flames, but yet you still continue to buy parts originating from this part of the world.

Continue??
Never bought a part yet from anywhere.

Quote
If like me you had access to the comprehensive materials test reports produced by ListerPetter, and original Lister CS drawings.

Well yes, I suppose if I did have acess to that sort of information and was an engineer to understand it I might be able to see the differences. If I had access to next weeks lotto numbers I probably wouldn't pick the ones I did either.
But I don't have access to that Material.  You do. What have you done with it? Sold it as I remember. Anything being done in the way of new up to standard parts so we don't need to go to the punjab's?

Quote
The raw material feed stock for the vast majority of these products is sourced directly from the Alang ship breaking yards located not far from Rajkot. hence whatever alloying content the finished product has, it would largely be determined by the quality of the scrap steel / cast iron feed stock.

At  rough guess, I'd say the material that went into the ships had to be of some decent standard. My You Tube shipbuilding education tells me there are a lot of stresses on ships which leads me to think they aren't built out of any old shit that comes along.  That may not be suitable for the purpose of engines but at the end of the day, the locals seem to run them for years in paddocks without an air cleaner in most cases let a lone a change of oil and they do OK.

There is probably a certain irony in us largely if not completely Old farts going to great pains to get the things up to our standards so they will still be running fine when we are dead and buried and the things are probably sent for scrap as I don't think these things hold a lot of interest to our kids and certainly not to our never without a mobile phone, twitfacegramchatkyping, video game obsessed, 4 thumbed grandchildren.


Quote
** I do concede that certain Indian sourced Lister CS spares are of an acceptable quality, such as bearings, valves, piston rings, and fuel injection equipment. Which is largely due to these companies having exposure to large Western markets, and who's customers insist upon having  robust QC procedure's in place, combined with financial penalty clauses written into contracts when the required quality is not produced.

Then maybe you could concede that some of us may have hoped to find suppliers that made parts of reasonable quality seeing they are apparently out there.   Lister hasn't done them since all of us had Hair or maybe even while we were still chasing anything in a skirt and a reasonable quality substitute would no doubt be miles cheaper than anything genuine or a genuine western reproduction.

You might want to think things through a bit better before you go poking fun at people.
Their reasoning may not be as silly as what you think.

vdubnut62

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Re: Parts sources
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2017, 07:17:49 PM »
When I read a forum thread like this, and see the responses generated when something like this appears:

Hey Blueflame one of the leading exporters of lister diesel engine and its spare parts. We can provide you all spare parts of lister diesel engine. You can check this out on www.crosswordagro.com

You guys crack me up, when you shoot these type of posts down in flames, but yet you still continue to buy parts originating from this part of the world.

If like me you had access to the comprehensive materials test reports produced by ListerPetter, and original Lister CS drawings. You would be able to appreciate that good customer service and honest dealings from Indian suppliers are not the whole story. More importantly it is what is not immediately apparent with Indian cloned Lister CS items, such as: Incorrect material composition, forging flash re-introduced into forging causing hidden defects, incorrect heat treatment, poor surface finish, dimensional errors, etc.

The raw material feed stock for the vast majority of these products is sourced directly from the Alang ship breaking yards located not far from Rajkot. Therefore the micro foundries producing the raw castings and forgings often have limited or non existent material assay capabilities, hence whatever alloying content the finished product has, it would largely be determined by the quality of the scrap steel / cast iron feed stock.

** I do concede that certain Indian sourced Lister CS spares are of an acceptable quality, such as bearings, valves, piston rings, and fuel injection equipment. Which is largely due to these companies having exposure to large Western markets, and who's customers insist upon having  robust QC procedure's in place, combined with financial penalty clauses written into contracts when the required quality is not produced.


 By the time an original lister part swims across the pond to the US of A, it's very near 10 times the price of a Rajkot "make do"
piece. I'm afraid some of us have to "make do".
Regards, Ron.
Ron.
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Johndoh

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Re: Parts sources
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2017, 08:57:50 PM »
I read somewhere about a guy in Canada I think, that imports Listeroids without an injector that are sold as compressors. I don't know if it's true
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dieselgman

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Re: Parts sources
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2017, 10:49:37 PM »
Quote
By the time an original lister part swims across the pond to the US of A, it's very near 10 times the price of a Rajkot "make do"
piece. I'm afraid some of us have to "make do".
Regards, Ron.

That also might assume that the original parts are actually still available... and to a large extent they have been obsolete for several decades now. NLA = no longer available.

dieselgman
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 02:07:11 AM by dieselgman »
Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...

Hugh Conway

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Re: Parts sources
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2017, 01:38:09 AM »
I read somewhere about a guy in Canada I think, that imports Listeroids without an injector that are sold as compressors. I don't know if it's true

Yes, one can buy listeroid "compressors"  engines, and parts from Jim Calder
Jim's website is      justliveoffgrid.com
He has most common Listeroid parts in stock.
I am in Canada and have bought parts from Jim many times. He is on the other side of the country, does his best to get things to me quickly.

I have had occasion to need some obscure small parts and specialty parts......Gary at DES is the man.


Cheers,
Hugh
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 01:42:00 AM by Hugh Conway »
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1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

38ac

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Re: Parts sources
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2017, 03:32:43 PM »
Kevin, No offense toward that Crossword Ago fellow was meant on my part. He can post here all he wants as far as I am concerned. And no offense toward you either but I dont think you fully understand the parts picture here in the states.
 Quality issues aside- For my dollar there are too many known good sources or Indian parts, both in India and in North America for me to risk sending my money to an unknown recipient in India.
 As for the genuine article I have also seen many sad faced recipients of  unadulterated junk sent here from the UK under the guise of a good CS type engines and parts. They call me and want me to bale them out of their mess lock stock and barrel and I sadly must turn them away.  Not all of of UK transactions are this way course but enough to be very leery of importing from unknown individuals. If there are known good sources that are willing to export I personally would like to have a list of them? Our other choice for genuine parts? Pay Sleeman Hawkin's asking price, then pay through the nose for currency exchange, customs, air freight shipping. The end result is  genuine parts sourced through S-H  are just plain not in the picture, the cost is not just high, or a little high  it is  nothing short of INSANE.

The Lister parts situation is a world away different here in the USA  than the UK is my bottom line.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 11:27:42 AM by 38ac »
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listard-jp2

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Re: Parts sources
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2017, 03:34:46 PM »
Continue??

By all means.

That is the essence of the problem though, isnít it? Itís an inconvenient truth! Someone like that comes on here and gets promptly gets shot down in flames for offering Indian parts, but ultimately the only option for the majority on this forum is to suck it up and to continue to buy these very same Indian sourced parts.

Anyone who has had experience of using genuine OEM Lister spares, and then has to fall back on Indian produced CS parts, will not need an extensive report to know what the vast majority of these parts are really like. The best piece of advice I ever had about using Indian sourced Listeriod CS parts on genuine CS engines was from a conversation I had many years ago with David Harris ďonly ever use parts that donít moveĒ i.e. manifolds, water flanges, water jacket side plates, rocker covers, crankcase breather elbow, etc.

To further put it into perspective, the Lister Petter strip report failed nearly 75% of the parts that were examined due to: incorrect material spec, forging defects, casting defects, dimensional errors, geometric errors, poorly machined surface finish, BSW threads forms which did not meet the requirements of British Standard 84, lack of depth of hardness or even a complete lack of hardness. A further 10 % of parts were borderline pass / fail. With the remainder of the components tested proving to be of an acceptable quality.

The defects highlighted above are exactly the type of defects that cannot easily be verified, as the vast majority of customers will not have the ability to carry out the required checks and tests needed to identify these shortfalls, usually the first thing you will know about a sub-standard item is when that new Indian sourced part does not fit, or has worn out in a fraction of the time it took for the original Lister item it replaced to have worn out.

 
For your benefit Glort, a bit of background information about the precautions necessary when using scrap steel / cast iron for the raw material feed stock to produce steel bar stock / raw cast iron castings.

As you identify the steel used for ships construction needs to be tough and also as a minimum: have a degree of corrosion resistance, be ductile, easy to weld in all positions (to facilitate when sections of a shipís hull are welded together), and not suffer from low temperature brittle fracture. Apart from the ductility aspect these are not really the properties required for Lister CS engine steel and cast iron parts.

Furthermore as part of the steel making process, these alloying elements are nearly always lost from the molten steel (as they are invariably more volatile than Iron), hence become oxides, and become suspended in the slag. Therefore if the steel is not analysed before itís poured and the alloying content adjusted accordingly [this is the part of the process that the vast majority of Indian micro foundries do not have the ability to undertake], what you typically end up with is Lister CS crankshafts that should be EN16 (an alloy steel) but end up little better than EN8 (medium carbon steel) as is verified by the LP strip report. The same principle applies for the production of Lister CS cast iron components.

The fact that the Indian version of these engines can and do run in adverse conditions, with little in the way of any maintenance. Clearly demonstrates the integrity of the original design, and just how good the original design was.

I suppose if I did have access to that sort of information. But I don't have access to that Material.  You do. What have you done with it? Sold it as I remember. Anything being done in the way of new up to standard parts so we don't need to go to the punjab's?

Yes that is quite correct, I did sell that information. But not before offering it up on here for a whole month for anyone who wanted to pony up the money. No one came forward [some people even suggested it should be made available free of charge!] with an offer that was better than what I already had in place, so for the forum members the opportunity was missed. I didnít sell it for a telephone figure number, but the people who bought it could clearly see its value because they did not even try and argue down the price, and they are now making good use of it to improve their own indigenous version of the Lister CS (and at the same time reducing their dependence upon Indian sourced parts). Within a few years I hope they will begin to give the Indians a run for their money. Until that time itís very much business as usual for the Indians, and their Western consumers of Lister CS spares ;-)



dieselgman

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Re: Parts sources
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2017, 07:04:26 PM »
Quote
indigenous version of the Lister CS


So what is the big secret as to whom and where this effort is taking place? We would always be very interested in improving the available parts pool in quality and availability. We would also be willing to invest serious money in this direction.

And... , I echo the "no offense" sentiment regarding Indian suppliers posting... however, they must be able to respond to parts queries and be able to speak intelligently and honestly about the realities of the third-world parts they are dealing in.

dieselgman
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 07:08:23 PM by dieselgman »
Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...

Johndoh

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Re: Parts sources
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2017, 11:46:30 PM »
Kevin, No offense toward that Crossword Ago fellow was meant on my part. He can post here all he wants as far as I am concerned. And no offense toward you either but I dont think you fully understand the parts picture here in the states.
 Quality issues aside- For my dollar there are too many known good sources or Indian parts, both in India and in North America for me to risk sending my money to an unknown recipient in India.
 As for the genuine article I have also seen many sad faced recipients of  unadulterated junk sent here from the UK under the guise of a good CS type engines and parts. They call me and want me to bale them out of there mess lock stock and barrel and I sadly must turn them away.  Not all of of UK transactions are this way course but enough to be very leery of importing from unknown individuals. If there are known good sources that are willing to export I personally would like to have a list of them? Our other choice for genuine parts? Pay Sleeman Hawkin's asking price, then pay through the nose for currency exchange, customs, air freight shipping. The end result is  genuine parts sourced through S-H  are just plain not in the picture, the cost is not just high, or a little high  it is  nothing short of INSANE.

The Lister parts situation is a world away different here in the USA  than the UK is my bottom line.

I exported an Audi 1.9 TDi engine and gearbox plus various other parts ECU, loom turbo etc to Canada a couple of years ago, total cost of shipping (groupage)  was Ä200.00 plus $49.00 fees in Canada. Sleemans have good quality genuine parts but even the postage to Ireland is scary,eg £20.00 P&P for LT1 rings. I use a UK delivery address with a Ä3.50 delivery charge to my local post office so there are ways around huge postage. For example I could send a 5kg package to the USA for Ä45.00 Royal Mail would charge £90.00+ for the same thing. If anyone has a Petter engine Jim Perkins is a good guy to deal with he charges what it costs him for postage
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness

glort

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Re: Parts sources
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2017, 03:32:07 AM »
Yes that is quite correct, I did sell that information. But not before offering it up on here for a whole month for anyone who wanted to pony up the money. No one came forward [some people even suggested it should be made available free of charge!] with an offer that was better than what I already had in place, so for the forum members the opportunity was missed.

You sound annoyed no one here bought the info.  What the Fk would the majority of people here do with it?  We are hobbiests's in the main with a couple of guys running some repair and parts shops. No one here was interested in going into manufacture of parts so what good would the info be to anyone.  What did you get for it? 2000? 5000?  I'd say that's too much for most people to fork out to do nothing more than read out of interest.
 Still there is all this secrecy as to who bought the material as if it's plans for a Nuke missile not old redundant engines. I was going to build the things, I'd be happy for as many people to know in advance as possible so I had max market penetration and ROI the minute I had something to sell or to even know where the biggest demand was going to be first off.

Quote
Within a few years I hope they will begin to give the Indians a run for their money.

If they have all the original drawings, how long could it possibly take to tool up for manufacture?
Of course while they are Diddling round getting started, Some more of the Indians already producing might just get the clue about lifting their game and get in a foot hold with quality parts the other lot cannot compete with on price or quality or even market themselves against  with a new un unproven product. It seems from your own account, the main thing the Indians have to do is get the metallurgy right. Don't need drawings to do that!

Of course there are a lot of other factors for this Mystery mob.... Like transportation costs, skilled labor, material supply and of course competition.  Forget about the Indians, If the Chinese think there is a buck to be made with these things they will be spitting them out before you know it and not doubt if they are of the quality of their other engines. they are going to be dam near impossible to compete with given their industrial muscle.

Anyway, we wait to be amazed.

38ac

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Re: Parts sources
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2017, 11:37:15 AM »
I believe that another factor in parts decisions is that practically nobody is running these slow speed engines any kind of hours. Ed is running the dickens out of his TM1 'roid but Id have to bet that he is one of very few.The price of fuel , lower priced solar , better battery technology, newer engine technologies such as the excellent Kubota and who knows what else comes into play.  Would be interesting to see a survey of how many hours people are putting on their engines. I have a pair of engines that make up my "users" and between the two  I dont put 200 hours a year on them  in spite of dreaming up uses  that would be better served by other motivations.
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glort

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Re: Parts sources
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2017, 01:38:56 PM »

^^^^^ I think that is an excellent point.

If I was going to move off grid and depend on a genny, it wouldn't be a roid or an original.  One I'd look at is a Chinese Horizontal.
Parts are plentiful, cheap and cheap to have delivered. Whole engines are Cheap.  Quality is overall good and parts are readily substitute for yanmar. While they may not be cheap, they are here, in stock and ready to get you going again asap.

The yamars and clones are still used on new machinery here and in other parts of the west. Not likely that something as large and bulky with the terrible power to weight ratio's like a roid are ever going to be used in the west. As a stationary engine, the Horizontals find mobility in a LOT of applications where as the roids are pretty much limited to slow boats.

The other thing I'd seriously look at is a Diesel car engine.  All they need is a govenor and you are set.  You could either get a mechanically injected unit or an electronically controlled. All you would need is an aftermarket computer and set the thing up and you could do a lot with them for a long time. I have a Merc OM617  Merc engine up the back now I will either put in a boat or set up as a whole house generator.  Could run a 30 KW gen head off that easily to power everything in my house and the houses either side.


Sure, we all love the Lister/oids but with the few exceptions, as a hobby not to depend on all the time.  Looking at the market Commercially. Can't think there would be too many places with enough demand for them outside of india and 3rd world countries where there would be sufficient demand to give a ROI for a new start up manufacture business no matter how good their quality.

BruceM

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Re: Parts sources
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2017, 04:54:23 PM »
I'm now putting about 400 hours per year on my Listeroid 6/1, 600 if I do more woodworking.  I'll do less if my current 120VDC to 240VAC inverter project works out well so that I can run my 1/2hp well pump or washer on the solar system.
 
Parts quality may be iffy, but I'm very glad there are parts readily available.  There just isn't a better slow speed engine choice out there, for a 6-8 HP low speed working engine.  My nervous system is just too fried to cope with the sound of 1800/3600 rpm engines. 




Blueflame

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Re: Parts sources
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2017, 01:13:25 AM »
Thank you Gary for the parts that arrived in good shape and exactly what I had pictured and I am amazed to have parts in hand before paying for them. Im happy for the whole listeroid hobby community. This rocker I want to live longer than the original from improved lubrication but unsure how. Thinking grease would be better than what I was doing before, dripping a mixture of eos assembly lube with added graphite.