Author Topic: DES 8/1 generator build  (Read 26365 times)

gusbratz

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2016, 03:40:27 PM »
I am making some very good progress and enjoying myself. I spent about 4 hours over the past few days with the harbor freight mini needle scaler and it worked fantastic! i was able to get to all spots inside the case. That was good advice and i sure am glad i did it. There was some low hanging fruit like corners of the gov recess ect where you could see pockets of sand but there were also some real surprises. as i needle gun'd along the bottom there were places that looked good and the white paint would blow away and i would get into 1/8" of mill scale or sand or whatever the black dust is. hard to imagine that you would run a factory putting engines together, casting parts and finish machining them with no plan to clean them before assembly. they sloped a light coat of white primer or something in there so on some level they were trying. i draw filed all the machined surfaces and wire wheeled them then wiped the frame out with solvent. i have chosen not to paint the inside red since it has been exposed to oil and i feel the risk of paint flaking off and gumming up the works is higher than the reward of having red paint.
    Then last night I  cleaned assembled the crankshaft support bushing houseings. again they looked fine but when the nedlle scaler went across them sand and scale just flowed off them. I then held an 18" starret level up against the vertical part of the frame where the bearings bolt and laid a starret square on the top and only a tiny bit of  light was visible so i am calling that square enough. I assembled the main bushing hoseings metal to metal without the crank. tightened  them up then took a set of inside mics and measured the top bottom front and back clearince between the bushing thrust surfaces. bushings were about .003 tighter at top than bottom. measured crank  with a big set of 6-9" mics at work and they show that the gear is not on quite square, off again by about. .003 from top to bottom. did the math for my shims and came up with .122 difference. divided by 2 is .061. the indians had .060 of gaskets on both sides with a .004 shim on the top. the measurements show how the bushings were closer on top than bottom so somebody over there was on the ball and aware of the issue. I made new gaskets out of 1/16" garlock (.062") then assembled the whole assembly with crank this time and it would bind a little bit as a rotated the crank through the top, even though feeler gauges showed .004 clearance all the way around. I made one more paper shim out of .005 and installed it and now it spins real nice. falls right to the bottom under it's own weight so I called the crank good to go with .010 of thrust clearance as measured with feeler gauges.
    This morning i put the idler gear in and temporarly installed the cam since you got me worried about them now. at a glance i would be totally happy with that backlash. i have been into tractor transmissions that had gears this size to move the whole machine with  way more backlash than this. I ran a piece of lead solder through the idler and crank gears and get bits of lead .008-.010 thick. then ran a bit of lead solder through the idler to cam gear and got .010-.018 thick. i can't imagine taking the time to build an offset bolt to close it up .006 would make the difference of a tinkers ass in hell. If those gears are junk they are junk. I did have a bit of white paint on one of the gears from when i took it out. i reached in with the wire wheel to clean it off and you could clearly see the marks from the wire wheel in the gear tooth i touched so they are super soft, usually a file will just skate off a gear tooth. so i guess i will just run it for a while and if they look like they are wearing i will make myself a whole set of gears from scratch. I have the tooling and have always wanted to make a gear. I know you can buy gear blanks to machine your self. here is the project as it sits now after a lot of cleaning.



32 coupe

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2016, 04:40:59 PM »


Looks good ! It sounds like you pretty much know what you are doing.
A lot of the guys had little or no engine experience and it does help.

The reason we paint the inside is because, as you have found out, the castings may
be porous and leak through.

Keep us updated ! Again, looks good !

Gary



Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
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32 coupe

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2016, 04:51:24 PM »
I forgot to mention one of the things that happens is when the engine is running
the cam gear will slap back and forth between the intake and exhaust lobes.

In other words the gears will be riding on one side during part of the cycle then will slap
over to the other side of the gear until the cam starts to rinse on the next lobe.

I don't know if I explained this perfectly but if you play with it you will see what is going on.



Gary

I'm not that familiar with Gary's engines, do you have an oil pump on yours ?




« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 04:58:58 PM by 32 coupe »
Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
Ashwamegh 2/25
John Deere 110 TBL
New Holland TC 30

"I was sitting here reading this thinking what an idiot you are until I realized it was one of my earlier posts !"

gusbratz

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2016, 05:38:10 PM »
yes it has an oil pump. but i wish it had the handle like the original listers to prime the system before you start it. i wonder how hard it would be to add an oil pump handle to it. i guess you can just spin the engine a few times and that gets oil going but it would be nice.

32 coupe

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2016, 06:49:48 PM »
My single doesn't have a pump but my twin does.
Check the check valve balls and seats...my twin took some work to get it going.



« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 07:07:07 PM by 32 coupe »
Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
Ashwamegh 2/25
John Deere 110 TBL
New Holland TC 30

"I was sitting here reading this thinking what an idiot you are until I realized it was one of my earlier posts !"

dieselgman

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2016, 11:22:22 PM »
Take a look at your casting near the pump and see if it has the boss drilled and tapped or not... we have provided the priming handle on some of our past projects as an option and could do the same for this one if desired.

Original Dursley built machines also had the insides nicely coated with a resilient paint... if nothing else, it makes clean-out a little easier.

dieselgman

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gusbratz

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2016, 01:10:17 AM »
no it's not drilled but I did see the flat machined surface and thought it would be very easy to do so.  If someone posted some dimensions I am sure I could easily make a handle. I know what you mean about the paint, they say it also encapsulates particals of sand you may have missed and I know it brightens up a crankcase when you are working in it. some websites suggest it helps splashed oil run to the bottom of the sump faster.  I even have a leftover can of glyptol here from another project but I just feel the risk of it shedding off over the years is too great on cast that has been exposed to oil. But then again how many times have you marked gears and con-rods and piston crowns with a paint stick and that seems to never come off when you get back into an engine. In any event it is too late now as I have wiped the bare cast iron with a coat of engine oil to prevent corrosion and I don't want to go back in with the solvent.

dieselgman

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2016, 03:49:37 AM »
The Glyptol works great on a freshly hot-tanked casting that is oil-free. You are probably right about a questionable bond to an oily casting though.

dieselgman
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BruceM

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2016, 04:30:22 AM »
We've had no trouble with the spray on red electrical varnish (glyptol type) in my neighbors DES 8/1 propane conversion engine.  It was detergent pressure washed after being ground smooth inside.  Slick hard finish and makes it easy to wipe down.



listard-jp2

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2016, 09:43:58 AM »
Whilst I greatly admire the clever work around solutions devised to date to overcome some of the more serious deficiencies on Indian sourced engines such as eccentric idler gear bolts. Together with the expertise forum members such as Butch have been willing to share on this forum (particularly the solution to addressing camshaft valve timing problems).

I am hopeing to make my clone as good as an original lister. trying to think of it as a 90% finished kit engine.

I still hold the opinion that no amount of fettling and burnishing will get you that close to the the quality of a genuine CS.

Why?

Because it is not the defects that you can see and measure for yourself in your home workshop and hopefully rectify or work around, its the hidden stuff that will ultimately catch you out.

Such as:

Raw materials not within the required specification causing lack of surface hardness and or lower material strength of critical components.

Due to raw material feed stock comprising largely of scrap steel, combined with limited material analysis at the micro foundries producing these parts. The presence of undesirable elements such as Lead, Phosphorous and Sulfur (to name a few) in finished raw materials which do not meet the specification for the particular grade of steel required.

Poor quality forgings that have had hidden slag inclusions introduced due to poor quality forging practices, thus allowing forging flash to be recombined with the raw forging. Hence creating stress raisers and ideal starting points for fatigue fractures in rotating or reciprocating assemblies.

Surface finish Ra values not sufficient on critical bearing surfaces.


I could go on, but I think the above starts to give you an idea, of what potentially can be hiding inside one of these engines (I am not saying all Indian sourced engines are like this, because a reliable Indian supplier if given sufficient inducement, will selectively assemble a batch of engines for export to contain what he believes to be the best quality components based upon his prevoius experience of his component suppliers products, also other factors come into play such as how much he values repeat business from the same source verses the extra work load western ideas of quality assurance place upon him).


If like I do, and as detailed in this post: http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=7667.0 you had sight of a comprehensive strip and evaluation report of an Indian sourced Lister CS clone engine [carried out by no less than Lister Petter themselves], then it would be of considerable interest to anyone who is involved with one these engines.






38ac

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2016, 01:29:56 PM »
The DES engines that go through my operations get a priming lever. Gary has them in stock. Because it is non-critical I have not tried to make science out of locating the hole for the pivot bolt.  I do it by using a properly fitting transfer punch in place of the pivot bolt. Locate the lever where it would appear to function correctly and give the transfer punch a good hit. Then before drilling use the transfer punch as your pivot by holding it inward against the mark and work the lever. If OK drill and tap. If not you simply peen the mark flat, then move things accordingly and center punch another. 
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

dieselgman

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2016, 03:35:43 PM »
Quote
had sight of a comprehensive strip and evaluation report of an Indian sourced Lister CS clone engine [carried out by no less than Lister Petter themselves], then it would be of considerable interest to anyone who is involved with one these engines.

I agree, that the basic materials and practices employed in India are not able to measure up to the original QC practices put in place when Lister/Petter built these engines in England. Even when given the original fully detailed specs the financial and practical realities of that Indian cottage industry are probably still going to control everything. I have some hope for the modern higher-volume parts improving from recent stocks... just not much incentive on the lower end of the scale though such as the antiques we are dealing with. It is hard (or impossible) to direct and control much in the way of change without some very serious funding put forth.
It will be very interesting to see how the new Lister/Petter fares with sourcing almost everything in India and China... I happen to know that they are now stocking and branding a lot of the stuff that they would have rejected a short time ago. I also know that many improvements in critical parts have been pushed through in that country and this will benefit the industry as a whole. The recent loss of most of the long established manufacturing base cannot bode well for the quality of the current L/P product line. We can only hope that the new owners and company will be motivated and successful with bringing back a high-quality product worthy of the name Lister/Petter.

dieselgman
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BruceM

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2016, 05:13:34 PM »
Lucky Brits with lots of old CS's around to pick from...none to be found here in the southwestern US.  So if you want a low speed engine you have to make do with a Rajkot kit, despite the well known issues.  I also note that many original CS owners are using Rajkot parts...


gusbratz

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2016, 05:50:26 PM »
the old saying "trying to make a silk purse from a sows ear" comes to mind. I got some of the oil system put together. I never really had to work with straight pipe treads before (they seem like a stupid idea) so i covered them with pipe dope and sandwiched o-rings on the back of the fittings. copper washers would have been better but my assortment does not go that big.


And then i noticed this problem with the oil feed pipeing. It's hard to see in the pic but this is where the oil pipe was when i took it apart. as you can see it seats on the right in the bevel but on the left it pushes so far in that it covers the tube to the bearing. i have a couple creative solutions but I was wondering how you guys handled the cross over tube. It  also it appears the dipper is on wrong, i believe it should be set up like a knife not like a paddle.

dieselgman

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2016, 08:28:12 PM »
Quote
Lucky Brits with lots of old CS's around to pick from...none to be found here in the southwestern US.  So if you want a low speed engine you have to make do with a Rajkot kit, despite the well known issues.

We have around a dozen or so original Dursley machines in Kansas - available for rebuilds. I have been holding on for many years, but it is time to lighten that load a bit. Price range $2500 to $7500 depending on condition.

dieselgman
Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...