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Author Topic: DES 8/1 generator build  (Read 28357 times)

gusbratz

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2016, 09:46:32 PM »
no rebar. just standard 6 bag mix in the first half then extra Portland in the last 6" or so. I did toss in some big rocks to make the job go quicker.

mike90045

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2016, 07:51:06 AM »
I hope that all-thread won't break sideways through the pour, did you use any reinforcing fiber in the mix or anything to strengthen the concrete ?

gusbratz

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2016, 01:11:31 PM »
nope no fiber, just extra portland. I am very confident my 2'x3' lump of concrete will be up to the job.

32 coupe

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2016, 02:56:29 PM »

I will be watching this to see the results.

I am a firm believer in the fiber reinforced concrete.

Those Lister clones will pound the crap out of anything they touch.

I have 2 of them and have spent hours getting them to run smoothly. The single cylinder is
much worse than the twin.

Keep us updated !

Gary

Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
Ashwamegh 2/25
John Deere 110 TBL
New Holland TC 30

"I was sitting here reading this thinking what an idiot you are until I realized it was one of my earlier posts !"

32 coupe

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2016, 02:59:19 PM »

Oh, did you get the brass/bronze idler gear ?

I will be more than happy to provide you with an offset idler bolt if needed.

Gary


Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
Ashwamegh 2/25
John Deere 110 TBL
New Holland TC 30

"I was sitting here reading this thinking what an idiot you are until I realized it was one of my earlier posts !"

gusbratz

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2016, 05:13:10 PM »
the engine came with a cast iron gear. DES provided a  full set of spare parts and that gear was also cast. i wish i had the bronze one but i think i will put some hours on what i have before i dump any more money into parts. this could easily turn into a rabbit hole. i think as long as i inspect the gear condition during oil change time i will be able to see if it's wearing funny. maybe i will do a prussion blue gear mesh check before i run it just to see if everything seems lined up.

BruceM

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2016, 05:49:20 PM »
Dave, aka xyzer, sorted the idler gear failure issue many years ago.  His findings: The idler is mislocated in the block, causing way to much play in the gears, and the amount of error is typical Rajkot- all over the map.  Dave made several batches of offset idler bolts of various offsets and sold them to fellow CS enthusiasts. I have one in my diesel 6/1.

With some piano wire and a dial gauge it's possible to measure the lash.  You will typically find either crank or cam with have huge amount like 0.030 inches instead of the 0.006 you'd like to see.  With an offset idler bolt you can fix  the tolerance problem.

We used one of 32coupe's offset idler on the DES 8/1 propane conversion engine and I thank him again for his generosity.  They work great for moderate errors. It's a bolt with an offset sleeve.




gusbratz

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2016, 07:42:42 PM »
ok, I will keep that in mind that I am looking for around .006 backlash when I get to putting it back together. how hard to balance are they? or check the balance? I mean I understand a big one lung engine is always going to thump some but shouldn't it be fairly smooth.

gusbratz

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2016, 09:11:27 PM »
I am also looking for some clearance's . I have heard a few thrown around about striking clearance (.45 for my 8/1 from my manual that came with it in the crate)  and crank pin clearance (.0015-.003 from here on this forum) but am looing for the thrust clearance between the crank and the main bushings. I see that the Indians had a small piece of gasket under the top of one bushing carrier to shim the top out away from the main frame. as well as multiple gaskets stacked on every thing on the whole engine.  I have forgotten the thumb rules in the manuals I used to have access to when I serviced IR gas line compressors but I thought it was .001" per inch of shaft diameter. I also worked on AJAX engines and they had all splash lube oil systems. from rebuilding many engines I learned that more stuff got trashed with tight clearance than loose so I always erred on the loose side on the engines I worked on.  piston ring end gaps close up as rings heat up and scuff cyl walls, rods and pistons expand out and close up striking clearnces as they heat up ect ect....

32 coupe

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2016, 09:57:32 PM »

I don't have the clearances handy but will look for them if someone doesn't chime in.

The idler gear setup.....what I found was the gears (crank, idler, cam) are not round. The clearances will change
as the crank turns because the gears are slightly egg shaped. Setup requires some "feel" for the clearance with
a happy medium for the final set.

The offset idler bolt is your best bet.

The side plates holding the crank bearings will be the same thing. Gaskets will be stacked up on both sides
to achieve the proper side clearance. I don't  remember the desired clearance but it is also necessary to get
the crank centered in the block during the process.
The bearing holders are so large that you will see that as you tighten them down things will change.

My twin has brushed bearings instead of rollers. I had to get the side thrust close then tighten the bearing holders
gradually as I turned the crank for the best clearance. As I tightened the holders I could feel the drag on.the bearing/bushing and ended up with the least drag/best feel. Rollers will be a little more forgiving.

I made a stack of side Gaskets then soaked them in oil before installing them. Several thicknesses are necessary.
File folder paper and note book paper and brown paper bags make great gasket material . It will take several attempts to get it correct. I used a magnetic dial indicator for.the final adjustment.




Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
Ashwamegh 2/25
John Deere 110 TBL
New Holland TC 30

"I was sitting here reading this thinking what an idiot you are until I realized it was one of my earlier posts !"

32 coupe

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2016, 10:35:35 PM »

I wanted to add If I remember correctly I spent about a day just setting the crank.

I am the slow and cautious type so I'm sure someone here could do it in an hour or so.

These beasts are just 3rd world junk as compared to the real thing being Genuine Lister.
I have NO experience with real Lister's and in fact have never even seen one that I recall.
The Indian stuff makes a great toy and many here have had great success. Many failures
have been noted as well. Some catastrophic failures will arise with even the best builders/assemblers.

At 62 with a day or 2 of engine work for more years than I care to remember, again I think the
clones are at best a great toy. I just wouldn't want to have to rely on them.

Any engine will be a crap shoot. Some live some don't.  Proper setup with close tolerances are all one can
hope for. These engines are just so plagued with problems that the probably of having problems with them
is almost guaranteed at some point.

I will add that setting the crank can be very rewarding. When you get it installed and the clearances are
correct turning that monster by hand and feeling the crank "float" is a great feeling. The downside is that every
single stage of assembly has to be done in this fashion. You cant trust any of the clearances to be correct.
Every surface has to be checked for parallel /square. Some have noted 1/2 gaskets on side plates and the same
at the bottom of the jug to get things to line up.

Patience and thinking will be your best friend.....

After rambling on, I will amble off.....


« Last Edit: October 15, 2016, 10:53:05 PM by 32 coupe »
Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
Ashwamegh 2/25
John Deere 110 TBL
New Holland TC 30

"I was sitting here reading this thinking what an idiot you are until I realized it was one of my earlier posts !"

gusbratz

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2016, 10:40:55 PM »
I am hopeing to make my clone as good as an original lister. trying to think of it as a 90% finished kit engine. I  guess I underestimated how far from the real thing they are.......
« Last Edit: October 15, 2016, 10:43:08 PM by gusbratz »

dieselgman

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2016, 03:36:36 AM »
There is a wide range of experiences with these... don't be dissuaded by the few disasters. We tend to hear a lot less about the success stories, but those ARE the majority for certain.

crankshaft end float should be around .005" to .010"

cylinder head clearance (bump) height should be .075" to .080" for your 8/1

dieselgman
Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...

BruceM

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2016, 05:37:48 AM »
+1  The important thing is to go through everything carefully. 38ac's engine build piece is fantastic. My older Metro 6/1 is pushing 3000 hrs this year.  I had issues only because I didn't do the complete rebuild up front. I had sand filled grease under the piston crown, and a cylinder liner that projected too much and thus head gaskets failed regularly, and a crooked connecting rod.  Those who just clean the sump and run them are the ones who may have some surprises, not likely with a serious build.  It's just SO much easier to go over everything ONCE, before you put it in service, that I highly recommend that approach.


32 coupe

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Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2016, 01:12:03 PM »

Don't let me discourage you.
Gary's engines have a reputation for being better units than most.
He also has an excellent track record of standing behind his products.

The thing is to be careful with every step during assembly. And more
importantly is to have fun with it !

Everyone here will be more than happy to give guidance and help in any way we can.

The offset bolt I offered will definitely help with gear adjustment. I have given several away so
it's not like I'm trying to make money from them. If you have a lathe they are easy to make and
we can guide you through the process if you have questions.

Have fun with it. When you see/hear that thing fire up it makes all the stress/worry melt away !!

Gary

Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
Ashwamegh 2/25
John Deere 110 TBL
New Holland TC 30

"I was sitting here reading this thinking what an idiot you are until I realized it was one of my earlier posts !"