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Author Topic: Petter AV2  (Read 19135 times)

EdDee

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2016, 03:02:35 PM »
Hi Starfire,

I am using 2x13mm Wide(Across the back) V-belts - at initial guess when putting this thing together, 1xV would do the required 5Kw without too much problem, so I stuck 2xV on just to be safe...

Noted with the 2xAlts, at least if one packs up, the other will keep you limping along in the interim...

About the thermister - Rather use one of those cheapie "clixon" type fan switches they use on the modern radiators - they kick in around 85 and out at about 80C - I been using one quite successfully now for quite a while(Controlling a 220v "Ex Freezer Room Blower Coil Motor" directly)... Granted, I have installed 2 in parallel, that allows for one to give up the ghost and the other to continue doing its job.... The only failure I have had so far, is one that failed in "closed" position and the fan just kicked in and didn't stop....

Cheers
Ed
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starfire

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2016, 03:24:11 PM »
Glort, when the regulator is removed, the alternators (Delco Remy) , its no secret...will charge at over 100 amps each  until the batteries reach around 14 volts, the current then will decrease to around 85 amps and keep coming down as the voltage continues to rise.... because they are NOT regulated. I havent changed any figures. When they reach 15 volts, the current is cut to 50 amps or so with a switch. I have said this all along, go back and read what i have said.
 I normally have TWO alternators paralleled, until my Lister died. This gave me 200 amps or more. Right now, I have only ONE alternator, so only 100 amps or so.



Just so you dont think im fibbing, here is a pic of my old two alternator setup with my Lister. I estimated that the absolute maximum current these alts will provide is around 150 amps short term each. Does this explain my figures? I did quote one other  forum  simply to independantly back up what i said, not to trick you.... you simply did not believe me. I dont know what else i can do.


starfire

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2016, 03:31:35 PM »
OMG. I just saw this edit of your previous post. Where's the facepalm Icon??

Mate, you win.
You absolutely win and got me hook line and sinker.
I have been debating and challenging this for pages with someone that doesn't have a rev counter or a Clamp meter and was guessing the whole time.
Wow. It all makes sense now.  How the Fk could I be so stupid and not see it and ask how these ever changing numbers were derived?  I should have known when I saw the dogs breakfast of of odd mismatched Batteries lying in endless dust and crap on the dirt floor and the rats nest of wiring. I did notice but didn't want to be that rude in pointing it out. I should have know better and woken up.

You got me. No question. I know when I have been soundly beaten and made to look like an idiot.
"35 years experience" and doesn't have a tacho or a clamp meter.
What an Idiot. Without doubt, I'm the biggest idiot I know to not pick up on so many red flags.

I'll slink off to a quiet corner now to hide for a while until my embarrassment subsides... which could take a while.
[/quote]

Ummm no.... thats why I bought TWO digital high current  amp/voltmeters from Farnell..... No guesswork required....
And, just sos you know, most AC clamp meters wont work accurately at the high alternator frequencies.....
And, if you followed my recent posts, you would know this mess is the result of a quick fix when my Lister died....
But, dont let me destroy that gleeful smile of yours..... enjoy.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 03:40:30 PM by starfire »

starfire

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2016, 04:11:45 PM »
Hi Starfire,

I am using 2x13mm Wide(Across the back) V-belts - at initial guess when putting this thing together, 1xV would do the required 5Kw without too much problem, so I stuck 2xV on just to be safe...

Noted with the 2xAlts, at least if one packs up, the other will keep you limping along in the interim...

About the thermister - Rather use one of those cheapie "clixon" type fan switches they use on the modern radiators - they kick in around 85 and out at about 80C - I been using one quite successfully now for quite a while(Controlling a 220v "Ex Freezer Room Blower Coil Motor" directly)... Granted, I have installed 2 in parallel, that allows for one to give up the ghost and the other to continue doing its job.... The only failure I have had so far, is one that failed in "closed" position and the fan just kicked in and didn't stop....

Cheers
Ed
Thanks Ed, those belts are probably what we call a "C" section, these are similar then to what I use. The pic above used these without problems on the big flywheels, although sometimes they would flip for no apparent reason.  Ill take your advice re the fan switches. Im thinking this will keep the engine warmer and at a constant temp simply by controlling the fan on off times, easier than installing a thermostat which would probably interfere with the thermo syphon.

EdDee

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2016, 04:37:12 PM »
Hey Starfire,

Interestingly, I have just been playing around with the temp switches on my beast....I have a T piece at cyl head exit and have the one temp switch screwed in there... There are another 2 as well.... one on the top of the radiator, and one at the bottom...

I normally run with the "small fan" hooked up to the head switch...as soon as the water ex head hits about 80 or so, it starts a small fan on the radiator, just to help the hydronic cycle a bit...

If the top radiator switch hits 80+ C, the main big fan kicks in... I seldom use the bottom switch(normally parallel to the top one in case of failure), unless its really cold out and I want the engine to warm up a bit more than usual....

Today I hot wired the small fan on permanently, and put the main fan on the head temp switch....just for interest sake, to see how it pulls this evenings load....

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

starfire

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2016, 05:03:27 PM »
That sounds like a good system. Can I copy it   :)
This Petter has a huge four bladed fan constantly spinning pretty much at engine speed, the rad is always cold.  Even though the engine isnt loaded yet, I just know its gunna run too cold, so your idea will be great.  I think too, with my engine under a constant load, theres always a carbon buildup  problem, a hotter engine helps with this. At least with the Lister it did. I am assuming your setup has a varying load, which also helps the engine to "purge" itself periodically. The Lister also had a sludge problem in the crankcase, the oil never got hot enough  to drive away the contaminants, was always tempted to wrap the oil supply line around the exhaust a few times !! I dont yet know much about the Petter, we have only just met.

mike90045

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2016, 07:29:13 AM »
Let me add an odd tidbit about belts.
I drive a serpentine belt off the flat flywheel, to a 6 groove flat pulley.   Works great for Tom, he's worn the paint off on 6 thin stripes of his flywheel.

I've got a flywheel that's not quite flat, and so I use 10 mil pipe wrap tape (looks like really heavy electrical tape) and make a slight "Crown" on the engine flywheel. (just 2 wraps, that's all)  Then it works like a champ for the season.  Without the tape "crown" the belt wanders all over heck and gone, eventually coming off.

EdDee

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2016, 09:29:52 AM »
Hey Starfire,

Go for it!!

More than welcome....!

I also had a bit of sludge and slime, mostly from the WI initially.... Put on a decent size dipper/force feeder to the big end and all of a sudden, crank case temp increased, less nasties, and unfortunately, a bit more oil usage...Oil usage I can live with, but slime not!

(Oil used is also a factor of bore/piston/ring wear - I know mine are quite bad....)

My setup runs softly for an hour or two initially, then gets the crap kicked out of it for the next couple of hours...dishwashers and suppertime!

Seems to work ok, but does give me a few headaches from time to time....all part of the fun!

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

mikenash

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2016, 08:42:26 AM »
Thanks Mike. Was talkng with an old school mechanic yesterday. he mentioned a product called kneedit steel. Its a 2 part epoxy that once mixed it is spread over the fracture and literally pounded into the void with a hammer. He reckoned they have used it in caterpillar engines with great success, Apparently  they suffer major electrolysis problems with some castings eaten away. Something in the water perhaps, this may explain why i look so old and decrepid too.
Evidentally there is kneedit steel, kneedit aluminium, and just plain kneedit. I vaguely remember mixing araldite and aluminium powder together many years ago to fix broken chainsaw handles... so this is a similar thing by the sounds
Hope to be generating power tomorrow, the AV1 is all mounted and almost ready to run. Made new alternator brackets today, renewed all the rubber mounts for the radiator, unsiezed the cooling fan bearing, just need a fuel line, oil, and a few bolts when I hit town in the morning.  Once the batteries are up, will give her a good clean and a coat of paint, makes it easier to work on in the future. I note the Petters are pressure fed, so the old dipper falling into the sump trick aint gunna happen again.  :)
How  is your engine coming along?

I put it aside for a couple of weeks due to pressure on the workshop space (and I had been waiting for a new injector from Rob in Australia as I had finally given up on getting the old one to "fire" consistently)  That injector and a new injector line pipe arrived today so I might get into it over the weekend.  I have been building a workshop/shed/house in the Bay of Plenty (400Ks away) in my "spare" time so have been busier than I like to be.  Built what I hope will be a good base for it and the genset so we will see.  I have been thinking of some insulative but not compressive material between the cast feet and the steel base.  I don't like to tweak up the mounting bolts too hard - it feels like a recipe for broken castings.  Any thoughts?  I cut four sections out of the base where each foot goes and bolted them to the four feet then welded them back into the base to make sure it is mounted "flat" all around but still feel a bit iffy about it - maybe a bit of brass shim or some such?  I'd be interested in your thoughts.  Cheers
 

mikenash

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2016, 09:07:27 AM »
Let me add an odd tidbit about belts.
I drive a serpentine belt off the flat flywheel, to a 6 groove flat pulley.   Works great for Tom, he's worn the paint off on 6 thin stripes of his flywheel.

I've got a flywheel that's not quite flat, and so I use 10 mil pipe wrap tape (looks like really heavy electrical tape) and make a slight "Crown" on the engine flywheel. (just 2 wraps, that's all)  Then it works like a champ for the season.  Without the tape "crown" the belt wanders all over heck and gone, eventually coming off.

Hi Mike

I have a ST genset sitting waiting to mount with my Lister, and I had considered using a serpentine belt as I reckon it'll be easier to get it to runs straight than with a couple of B-section vee belts.  My genset is 1500 RPM (50HZ) so something like 3:1 overdrive is what I need (diameter around the 200mm-ish mark)

But - short of getting one machined - I can't see anything "off the shelf" like that.  What did you do?

I talked to the turning shop we use and they can do one but it wouldn't be cheap.

Any thoughts?

Cheers, Mike

dieselgman

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2016, 09:59:53 AM »
We stock an 8" K8 pulley (K section, 8-groove) - off the shelf - also stock most sizes from 4.5" through 15".  These use fairly standard automotive type serpentine belts.  The ones we have are for SK QD (tapered) bushings that can be matched to just about any shaft size. These are quite heavy items and are not cheap by any measure (8" is about $185 US with the bushing)... but likely much less than having one built from scratch.

dieselgman
« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 01:24:49 PM by dieselgman »
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oldgoat

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2016, 02:06:09 PM »
For those that would like to run their alternators a little faster I decided to look up the speeds for maximum output for some brands and found that Delco Remy do 5000rpm Prestolite depend ing on the model 2300 to 4500  CAV 5000 Bosch 7000 and Lucas with the inbuilt regulator 6000.  The only manufacturer I can find who gives output Vs speed figures is CAV and their biggest model which is 60 amps would only output 25 amps at 1500 trpm.

mikenash

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2016, 08:13:25 PM »
We stock an 8" K8 pulley (K section, 8-groove) - off the shelf - also stock most sizes from 4.5" through 15".  These use fairly standard automotive type serpentine belts.  The ones we have are for SK QD (tapered) bushings that can be matched to just about any shaft size. These are quite heavy items and are not cheap by any measure (8" is about $185 US with the bushing)... but likely much less than having one built from scratch.

dieselgman

Thanks, Dieselgman - that's an option I guess.  I suspect the freight down here to the bottom of the world might double the cost?  Do you have any idea?  The greenback/$NZ's not too bad at the moment

I'm used to taperlock bushings but had a google and watched a video on those QD ones - different take on the same thinking, I guess

Cheers, Mike


dieselgman

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2016, 01:07:26 AM »
USPS Flat-rate shipping up to 70lbs will go to any country in the world for a little under $85.

We generally order and ship these in bulk because of the excessive weights involved and sometimes simply availability issues. Our suppliers do not keep stocks on hand. I would think it probably worth trying to import direct from India... a large portion of our cost is related to import and freight coming into the US.  >:(

dieselgman
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mikenash

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2016, 06:36:33 AM »
USPS Flat-rate shipping up to 70lbs will go to any country in the world for a little under $85.

We generally order and ship these in bulk because of the excessive weights involved and sometimes simply availability issues. Our suppliers do not keep stocks on hand. I would think it probably worth trying to import direct from India... a large portion of our cost is related to import and freight coming into the US.  >:(

dieselgman

Yep.  Thanks.  That's good advice.

I imported the ST head myself from China and it was a lot of mucking about and time at customs etc etc - end cost was about equivalent of $650USD for a 5kW landed and cleared customs & duties etc

i suspect importing one pulley from India may not stack up on the aggravation-versus-savings scale?

I may simply keep looking for just the right B2 pulley here on TradeMe (ebay) with a taperlock centre and have a play.  If the belts annoy me then a serpentine set-up mght be plan "B"

I'll keep thinking about that one . . .

I appreciate the advice.  Thanks, again.