Author Topic: Petter AV2  (Read 19123 times)

starfire

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Petter AV2
« on: September 27, 2016, 06:26:31 AM »
Installed the new engine this morning to find the cooling water gushes into the oil sump!! I have yet to learn whats inside these engines.
I am assuming they have wet sleeves, and I am assuming the bloody thing has been sitting dry for so long that the rubber? O rings that would seal the water from the oil have disintegrated?
Or, if not wet sleeve, then it can only be a cracked block, frost damage perhaps.
Can anyone tell me if these are wet or dry sleeved engines please.
Its been a shitty week for me. excuse the profanity,

dieselgman

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2016, 07:06:09 AM »
We have all of the old Petter documentation, (hundreds of the old books and manuals) and I can look this up for you...

This model uses a wet-sleeve design with an o-ring seal on the bottom of the sleeve. JB67 for the sleeve and JB68 for the sealing ring from the Petter parts reference. I do not know if any parts remain available but you could get a replacement o-ring sized by simple measurement of the old parts.

dieselgman
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 07:09:10 AM by dieselgman »
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starfire

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2016, 07:58:45 AM »
Thank you diesel, truly appreciate that. I was hoping wet sleeves were the case, Im now happy to dismantle this engine knowing it will  possibly be an easy fix. Its been a bitter dissapointment after starting the engine and hearing it run before purchaseing then to find this problem.
Once again, thanks, there is very little on the internet about these models, that I  have managed to find anyway.

dieselgman

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2016, 09:46:50 AM »
Best of luck!

The old Petters are worth saving.

dieselgman
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38ac

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2016, 12:11:04 PM »
Before you start dismantling it would be wise to pull the crank case door and look to see where it is coming from. Might save some head scratching later >:(
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

starfire

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2016, 06:28:15 AM »
OK, a big day here on the west coast. Tracked down another Petter, this time an AV1. This one complete with radiator and a nice exhaust. Had to literally cut away the old winch from around it with a cutting torch, and lifted it out with a tractor. This one, although very rusty, runs like a dream, despite the small blanking plate on the front shaft of the engine completely rusted through, I can make another one of these easily. The beauty of this one ... it appears to  use identical parts to the AV2 with one cylinder knocked off.
Update on the AV2.
I have to thank 38ac for his suggestion to open the crankcase covers. I did this at first light this morning. The water is trickling in to the sump from a 1/4 inch round hole just above the camshaft at the front cylinder. Im suspecting a crack, or more likely a corrosion hole because its round. Im going to keep this engine, and when I have time will remove the cylinders and perhaps bronze weld the offending hole.... theres not many other ways to repair cast iron, but bronzing should fix it Im picking. The engine  seems to have done very little work.
Some pics.









the AV1










« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 06:54:18 AM by starfire »

mikenash

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2016, 08:28:04 AM »
OK, a big day here on the west coast. Tracked down another Petter, this time an AV1. This one complete with radiator and a nice exhaust. Had to literally cut away the old winch from around it with a cutting torch, and lifted it out with a tractor. This one, although very rusty, runs like a dream, despite the small blanking plate on the front shaft of the engine completely rusted through, I can make another one of these easily. The beauty of this one ... it appears to  use identical parts to the AV2 with one cylinder knocked off.
Update on the AV2.
I have to thank 38ac for his suggestion to open the crankcase covers. I did this at first light this morning. The water is trickling in to the sump from a 1/4 inch round hole just above the camshaft at the front cylinder. Im suspecting a crack, or more likely a corrosion hole because its round. Im going to keep this engine, and when I have time will remove the cylinders and perhaps bronze weld the offending hole.... theres not many other ways to repair cast iron, but bronzing should fix it Im picking. The engine  seems to have done very little work.
Some pics.

Dayle, re welding that cast - I saw an interesting short video of a chap using an arc welder and, presumably an RSP or similar rod, to repair a casting.  He had it all ground clean and he just made a short run - maybe an inch? - and peened the crap out of it as it cooled/shrank.  Then he waited until the mass of cast had sucked up all the heat and did another short run . . . that was his way of getting around the pre-heating/cooling/cracking cycle.  And because it was an arc process it could be positional . .

Good luck with the engines.  I'll watch with interest.

Cheers









the AV1












starfire

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2016, 09:51:31 AM »
Thanks Mike. Was talkng with an old school mechanic yesterday. he mentioned a product called kneedit steel. Its a 2 part epoxy that once mixed it is spread over the fracture and literally pounded into the void with a hammer. He reckoned they have used it in caterpillar engines with great success, Apparently  they suffer major electrolysis problems with some castings eaten away. Something in the water perhaps, this may explain why i look so old and decrepid too.
Evidentally there is kneedit steel, kneedit aluminium, and just plain kneedit. I vaguely remember mixing araldite and aluminium powder together many years ago to fix broken chainsaw handles... so this is a similar thing by the sounds
Hope to be generating power tomorrow, the AV1 is all mounted and almost ready to run. Made new alternator brackets today, renewed all the rubber mounts for the radiator, unsiezed the cooling fan bearing, just need a fuel line, oil, and a few bolts when I hit town in the morning.  Once the batteries are up, will give her a good clean and a coat of paint, makes it easier to work on in the future. I note the Petters are pressure fed, so the old dipper falling into the sump trick aint gunna happen again.  :)
How  is your engine coming along?
 

starfire

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2016, 12:20:13 AM »
Heres a quick  vid of the AV1 running. Its nowhere as nice to listen to as the Lister, but it runs nice, a bit lazy on the governor, this could need a looking at. Ill get stuck in over the summer and tidy the whole shebang, rewire the banks, and get rid of the useless junk buildup....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KYgGwnveG0&feature=youtu.be

starfire

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2016, 10:10:37 AM »

The video makes it look like you are running a serpentine belt on that setup.
You dont give up easy. Did you notice the digital display showing 100 amps at 13,8 volts? You said it cant be done. Did you hear the RPMs of the engine? Thats spinning my old no good  70 amp alternator  at 1100 rpms.... you said I was telling porkies.
 And, no,  i use vee belts.

EdDee

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2016, 10:47:35 AM »
Hi Starfire,

Nice compact setup in the engine/alternator department.... Just a quick observation though... It looks like you are running the v-belt off the periphery of the flywheel(I like doing that myself), with the engine doing around 1000 to 1100rpm(Rough guestimate from the sound).... The ratio on your pulley of your alt looks to be at least 3:1 (couldn't really see as it was just a glance).... This makes your alternator revs about 3 to 4000Rpm?

Cheers
Ed

Edit: Just noticed the v-belt groove in the flywheel in the above pics....NICE!!
« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 10:53:31 AM by EdDee »
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starfire

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2016, 11:30:16 AM »
There is no flywheel groove... i wish there was.
 If you look at the pics, you will see the pulley adjacent to the flywheel that drives the fan. Its around 5 inches in dia, the alternator has a 4 inch, these take a C section belt, thats whats driving the alt. I spaced the fan back from the rad 1 inch and used  that second smaller pulley to drive the  fan. I was hoping to get the engine to run a little warmer, is there a thermostat somewhere in these? If not, it really could do with one. You are right, the engine runs at  around 900/1000 rpms, so with a 5 inch down to a 4 inch pulley we do have a small  overdrive. I havent had much luck using vee belts direct to flat flywheels, they have a habit of twisting and flipping over unless they are ridiculously tight. Here I had to use a jockey pulley to get round the radiator mounts.  When I get the second alternator mounted, Illl use a different method, this was all done in a rush.

EdDee

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2016, 12:25:33 PM »
Hi Starfire,

Looked at the pics again, weird optical illusion!! Could swear its a groove!! Amazing how eyes play tricks on you!! (Or me in this case!!)

Also did a freeze-frame at around 1min 30 to 1min 35 in your vid, and yep, eyes playing tricks on me again!! (My optical delusions of the belt angle etc are doing a wonderful job... Lol)

I have been running on the periphery of flywheels sans grooves for many years, my current beastie has 2 belts running on the outside of the flywheels, with a double sheave pulley on the Alt.... Haven't had a problem yet... Touch wood! (Granted, its a 600dia flywheel and around a 300dia pulley) I think my luck has been to do with a somewhat more "generous" spacing between centers... Longer belt=better average lap angle = better/more cooling for the belt=longer life and less frequent belt adjustments.

I am a bit "miserly" with redoing things over and over, so I went for the above setup and it has paid for itself many times over. (In effort as well as parts)  - I have only had to adjust the belt once that I can remember in the last year or so, maybe twice at the most... Currently the belts have around 3500hrs on them and they are still in good condition as well. As to belt tensions, they are minimal/just enough to keep things spinning under full load, probably way less than 20kg/side at a rough guestimate... They track well and even have their own "pathways" worn in the rim's paint!

I considered machining grooves in my flywheels at one stage, albeit briefly, and decided that with the CI quality of them, they are holding together and need as much help as they can get, idea cancelled!!

Are you going to run each alt on its own belt, or a single belt with additional jockeys and guide pulleys?

Cheers
Ed



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starfire

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2016, 01:01:05 PM »
I think you are right with spacing and belt angles, I never had too much trouble with the Lister...  big flywheels?
Overheated and stretching belts are a pain, I agree.... what belts are you using... vee or flat? I assume vee as you were talking grooves.
I am going to do away with the belt driven fan, and fit an electric one, and use a thermistor to turn it on and off. That way I can remove some  brackets and that  weird belt tensioner, that will give direct access to the pulleys from the alt. without needing any jockey pulleys, keeping things simple. I can then redo the alt mounts,  mirror image them, one each side, and use both those 4 inch pulleys. The 5 inch pulley im using now will then use a magnetic clutch to run my air compressor when needed.
 I cant get this engine to run smoothly below 900 rpms, so I guess itll stay around where it is. I havent seen a torque curve to actually know whats best. Im psychologically damaged after having the Lister putt putt putting for so long, I have become allergic to RPMs!!
Two alternators will give me nearly 3 killowatts charging current, that will use pretty much all of my 5 hp.
This is the plan......

starfire

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Re: Petter AV2
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2016, 01:28:09 PM »
Glort, that other meter is reading the input from my solar panels. I think it was reading around 4/5 amps, it was raining when i took the video..
Just for you, tomorrow I will make another video. Ill slow the engine down so you can see the current drop on the display. Will that satisfy you? Then will you stop calling me names? And, is there anything else you would like to see? That display was actually stuck on 100 amps, thats the maximum it will read, in fact the alternator was pushing out more, the display just couldnt read any higher.
The older alternators have a bigger safety margin, like I said, they are bigger in bearing size, rotor size and stator wires are bifilar wound, so you can easily get 30 percent or more from them by changing the diodes and removing the regulator.. Your later types are made  lighter, but  have superior electronics to protect them... this is the march of progress. Its like with pulleys, they use flat belts now so  to use smaller pulleys to allow more compact engine compartments, they can take more load to run more accessories like aircon, power steering pumps etc. Everything gets smaller as we progress. I just happen to like the older types, you dont.
And to add.
I dont own a Rev counter to show you the engine RPM, another person here has guessed it by the sound to be around 1000 rpms..... I can only give the maths of the 5 inch and 4 inch pulley overdrive, this is what, 20 percent? That would have the alt spinning at 1200 RPMs in the vid.
I dont have a clamp meter either, and my multimeter goes only to 20 amps..
I am confident the digital display and current shunt are accurate, these were sourced from Farnell, a reputable company in the UK, now called element 14. Given the voltage display coincides exactly with my multimeter, I doubt there is any great error.
Are you a conspiracy theorist by any chance?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 01:45:59 PM by starfire »