CS 3/6/8 - 1 rebuild

[dieselspanner]

Hi All

After the summers working, barging, roofing and drinking we finally had some wet weather and I didn't feel bad about getting back in the shed, I don't have the same number of projects as Ed Dee bur I must be getting close....

Anyway, I ordered loads of bits for the CS back in the spring and on Saturday I dragged it out and stripped the crank out, I was running but vibrating like buggery ar 600 rpm and the well chewed mains were slack in the white metal bearings. I'd had it reground to fit an Indian big end bearing but there's no chance, up here in the Pyrenees, of getting the mains rebuit. In hindsight I'd have been better biting the bullet and getting a new one.

I had a couple of taper roller bearings and and carriers sent out from Rajkot along with the replacement for the leaky injector pump supplied free of charge by Dev Precision. The outer races of the bearings stood 2 mm - 80 thou'' proud of the carriers and locked the crank up solid.  It took a LOT of fettling with a 4'' angle grinder to get the carriers within 40 thou'' of the crankcase, then I made up gaskets to sort out the end float.

I'd also ordered an aluminium piston as I believe I have flywheels 'weighted' for the smaller piston, hence the vibration, the - the makers plate says the machine started out as a 3 - 1 'hopper cooled' in 1934 - so I reasoned that the lighter piston would help before I started adding mass to the 80 year old fly wheels. I now have three compression rings and two oil control rings, one beneath the gudgeon / wrist  pin, as opposed to four compression rings on the iron piston.

For those that are interested, the ally piston weighs 1.325 kg / 2'9 lbs and the iron 3.453 kg / 7.6 lbs according the scales belonging to SWMBO.

I crimped off the ends of the oil lines to the main bearings and drilled them so they deliver the oil at an angle, directly to the ends of the rollers then re assembled the whole lot.

Next is sort out the timing and bleed the system through.

I have two questions,

Have I overdone the oiling to the main bearings and would it be advisable to take a feed from the right hand side oil line to the non driven end of the cam shaft thus negating the need for the 'Oil Here' bolt.......

Cheers Stef

[38ac]

The TRBs will run quite happily with nothing other than splash.  The only reason any Indian TRB engine has an oil pump is because customers who  dont  understand how the engine is lubricated demand them.  Is educational to start a dry engine, run it for a minute, shut it down and quickly pull the access cover. What you will find is about half the oil  pumped to the mains runs down the side and to the sump. The other half follows the crank throw and is thrown about once it reaches the end and is slung around everywhere inside the engine. Even with out that oil the dipper slings a huge amount of oil. So much that Lister put a tray over the upper sump with a very narrow slot to restrict how much oil was moving around. This I assume was to reduce consumption past the rings.  This is with the dipper turned(properly) end ways. When turned sideways as supplied by India the amount of oil being slung around is simply incredible.

 The OIL bolt only needs to be removed and lubed when the engine has sat for a very long period of time. The 6/1 on my buzz saw (saw bench to Europeans LOL)  doesn't run for months at a time and yet  doesn't seem to suffer from me not fooling with the OIL bolt.

To your questions I wouldn't have bother rerouting an oil lines but over done? I wouldnt say so.   Needed? Nope 

[EdDee]

Hi Stef!

I think that would be superb what you have done gone and done... (Hows that for a convoluted a reply!)

As to oiling into the "oil here" hole, I wouldn't worry... Others can correct me if I am wrong, but I only use the "oil here orifice" when the engine has been standing a substantial length of time, for daily startup, u shouldn't need to worry... If its a "Show" engine, a quick dash of oil prior to running would be all that is required,along with the general slop over the rockers and links before you wind it up... Possibly install one of those "Lathe-Bed type Oil cups".... Makes life a bit easier and simpler in the long run...(As well as keeps the grit out too! More often than not, grit from a spanner ends up in a machine uninvited!)

Actually, come to think of it, I haven't used the "Oil Here" hole for many moons.... Even after standing.... I simply turn my beast over for an extended period on the 220v starter motor until it gets well and truly juiced up...... The friction starter spins it over at about 100RPM or so(Guestimated of course!)....

Cheers
Ed

PS - the projects are still piling up...Life is fun!! Last quickie was a Timney on a 30-06...and change the cyl head on TM1, and replace the head gasket, and clean the radiator header tank, and sort a leak on the oil pump, and de-carbon the exhaust, and clean up the driveway after the de-carbon job, and.......Damn, no wonder I'm knackered!

[mikenash]

Hi Stef!

I think that would be superb what you have done gone and done... (Hows that for a convoluted a reply!)

As to oiling into the "oil here" hole, I wouldn't worry... Others can correct me if I am wrong, but I only use the "oil here orifice" when the engine has been standing a substantial length of time, for daily startup, u shouldn't need to worry... If its a "Show" engine, a quick dash of oil prior to running would be all that is required,along with the general slop over the rockers and links before you wind it up... Possibly install one of those "Lathe-Bed type Oil cups".... Makes life a bit easier and simpler in the long run...(As well as keeps the grit out too! More often than not, grit from a spanner ends up in a machine uninvited!)

Actually, come to think of it, I haven't used the "Oil Here" hole for many moons.... Even after standing.... I simply turn my beast over for an extended period on the 220v starter motor until it gets well and truly juiced up...... The friction starter spins it over at about 100RPM or so(Guestimated of course!)....

Cheers

Hey Ed

What's the 220V friction starter?  I'd be interested to see an image if there is one?  Or some details?

Thanks, Mike
Ed

PS - the projects are still piling up...Life is fun!! Last quickie was a Timney on a 30-06...and change the cyl head on TM1, and replace the head gasket, and clean the radiator header tank, and sort a leak on the oil pump, and de-carbon the exhaust, and clean up the driveway after the de-carbon job, and.......Damn, no wonder I'm knackered!

[EdDee]

Hi Mike,

The starter is pretty basic -

220v Motor, around 1/2hp at 1440RPM, mated to a 300mm or so trolley wheel (with an inflatable tyre) by around an 8 to 1 belt reduction... The whole gizmo is hinged with a spring return and actuating pedal to press the tyre against the flywheel by using the foot pedal...

To start, engage decompression, turn on 220v motor, slowly engage the pedal, the whole shebang starts spinning the flywheels and when you've had enough fun spinning things over to get the oil sloshed around properly, drop the decompression lever, and away she goes...

(I actually use a small "donkey generator" to start the Lister in the event of a power failure.... 100% WMO makes for hard starting on occasion)

Cheers
Ed

[EdDee]

Hey Mike,

I had a scratch around the pics I have on file and found this one, top/oblique view of the friction start....

http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/General Listeroid Pics/220v Friction Start.jpg

Not a great pic, but it might give u the idea....

Cheers
Ed

[mikenash]

Hey Mike,

I had a scratch around the pics I have on file and found this one, top/oblique view of the friction start....

http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/General Listeroid Pics/220v Friction Start.jpg

Not a great pic, but it might give u the idea....

Cheers
Ed

Thanks Ed

That's another wonderfully simple idea.

I used to use a forklift tyre attached to a big reduction drive to spin the timber sorting table in a sawmill - used a truck-type suspension bladder to push it against the driven surface - quite a bit of smoke if you tried to start it when the table had a few tonnes of timber on board lol

I have just bought an automotive flex-plate and starter to tinker with, and we'll see how that goes

otherwise your set-up is a goodie

Thanks for getting back to me

Cheers, Mike

[dieselspanner]

Hi All

The Bitza runs!

Bleeding was a pig, until I noticed that at the end of a savage cranking the injector spat bubbles back where I had the fuel line cracked at the top end. I'd marked the timing side flywheel with a pointer on the last pump linkage clevis pin and BIG white script on the wheel rim - suitable for the focally challenged, who's reading glasses tend to drop off at anything over 10 rpm, Butch's tip - it was happening at around 110 deg. before TDC as the engines rotation stopped it's self against the compression and I doubted I'd got the IP timing that far out.

The only other way in for air is through the injector so I pulled it out and sure enough it was stuck in the open position, I don't know what had glued it up, I've only ever run on white diesel.

I stripped it down, following Starfire's post and reseated the 'drippy' pingle valve with jewellers rouge, £5 including delivery from the UK for 50 g, a lifetimes supply! and the 'creak' as it popped returned.

I setup the injector pump with the injector bled and connected but not in the head, listing to the 'Creak' and rocking the flywheel past my BIG white timing marks, reassembled, she fired up first swing.

Plenty of smoke as the excess fuel burned off and then a nice clean exhaust as she settled down.

The leaping about has quietened down but still need more work, I've probably gone too far the other way with the ally piston.. if there's a kind soul in Lister land who could let me know the weight of the con rod, complete with big end, small end, cap and bolts I might be able to do the static balancing thingy with the crank in the motor on my new, well lubricated TRB's and the piston shoved to the top of the bore.

As an aside, I found that when I located the camshaft in accordance with Butch's post the timing was a tooth out, I reassembled it half a dozen times and not until I put more BIG white witness marks on the 'free' end' of the shafts retaining collar, to make sure it was at TDC at the same time as the crankshaft. I haven't measured the angle but it's somewhere around 5 degrees at a guess.

Cheers

Stef