Valve clearanance/valve train issue with Lister CS

[38ac]

One thing that I did not place in my video on cam timing is that seldom does the valve lift overlap ( or center of "rocking" as you say) happen exactly at TDC, but very close. In other words looking by eyeball is centered but if you were to use a couple indicators on the lifters to get that part exactly at the middle of the overlap and a degree wheel on the crank shaft you would find that the gear will not mesh    On a CS the split happens just a few degrees ( 2 as I remember? )  prior to TDC,

 Reason this is important is my tutorial was designed to be easy to follow and done via eyeball. However if half science is applied as some have tried  a person can get into trouble and I have received some questions and indeed some terse scolding from people who say the entire deal is no good becauser it just doesnt work out.  Sooo, let me ad this.

 If you eyeball the relationship of the lifters and the placing of the crankshaft (and you have not had too much to drink) the correct gear mesh is the one that places the names parts and pieces in the relationship stated. SPlit the lifters and crankshaft at TDC.  However under close scrutiny the exact center of overlap and crankshaft being at TDC cant happen. It actually happens just  a couple prior to TDC is proper and NEVER after TDC.  As I said in the video, a tooth off is a LOT off and you will be obviously out of time via the eyeball. 

[dieselspanner]

What ever the 'rest' say I had no trouble following the tutorial.

I had plenty of time and deliberately assembled the gear train a tooth out in either direction so I had an idea of how wrong wrong could be, still didn't take me an hour.

Mikenash, when you adjust the IP - having loosened the bolt - start low and work up so as not to jam the injector pump, otherwise, at the top of the adjustment it's possible to lock the whole thing up,. Well it was with my 'Indian' injection pump.

I found marking one flat of the bolt with Typex - white typing correction fluid - helped.

Cheers Stef   

[mikenash]

One thing that I did not place in my video on cam timing is that seldom does the valve lift overlap ( or center of "rocking" as you say) happen exactly at TDC, but very close. In other words looking by eyeball is centered but if you were to use a couple indicators on the lifters to get that part exactly at the middle of the overlap and a degree wheel on the crank shaft you would find that the gear will not mesh    On a CS the split happens just a few degrees ( 2 as I remember? )  prior to TDC,

 Reason this is important is my tutorial was designed to be easy to follow and done via eyeball. However if half science is applied as some have tried  a person can get into trouble and I have received some questions and indeed some terse scolding from people who say the entire deal is no good becauser it just doesnt work out.  Sooo, let me ad this.

 If you eyeball the relationship of the lifters and the placing of the crankshaft (and you have not had too much to drink) the correct gear mesh is the one that places the names parts and pieces in the relationship stated. SPlit the lifters and crankshaft at TDC.  However under close scrutiny the exact center of overlap and crankshaft being at TDC cant happen. It actually happens just  a couple prior to TDC is proper and NEVER after TDC.  As I said in the video, a tooth off is a LOT off and you will be obviously out of time via the eyeball. 

Hi 38ac

I didn't notice you had a video, duh! 

But your instructions were good

It's much much better to play with something you understand the functions and relationships of rather than to just slavishly follow instructional steps and sweat over getting something you don't understand wrong . . .

I figure:

(a) once you have your head around the rotational and timing relationships then you can tinker with it until it's OK - it wasn't until I read Ed's helpful post that I realised how easy it was to poke around in the cam area & pop out the idler & re-time stuff. (Thanks for that, Ed)

and (b) worst comes to worst, I can just take off a main bearing bell, re-time everything by the marks, and move onto the next problem/challenge/opportunity

When I had the idler and its pin/shaft bolt/thingie on the bench for a clean, the gear eyeballed-up good but I could feel some burring at the edges where repeated contact has just spalled a wee bit of metal out from the sharp edges of the teeth.  Normal?

And I figure that bolt/shaft goes back in slot upwards to catch a bit of splash oil for the bushing?  Or is that another newbie assumption

Thanks again for your advice

Cheers, Mike

[mikenash]

What ever the 'rest' say I had no trouble following the tutorial.

I had plenty of time and deliberately assembled the gear train a tooth out in either direction so I had an idea of how wrong wrong could be, still didn't take me an hour.

Mikenash, when you adjust the IP - having loosened the bolt - start low and work up so as not to jam the injector pump, otherwise, at the top of the adjustment it's possible to lock the whole thing up,. Well it was with my 'Indian' injection pump.

I found marking one flat of the bolt with Typex - white typing correction fluid - helped.

Cheers Stef   

Cheers Stef, good advice, I will do that

Hey I have a concern re the oil pump and would appreciate an opinion

It looks and reads like an idiot-proof simple device - plunger, balls/valves & a spring - and it has a formed tin tubular cover over the plunger that the manual pump actuator/primer thingie bears on . . .

On my unit that cover will tilt-and-jam sideways when th priming lever is used and there's a funny bit of flat steel between the top of the tin cover and the priming lever.  it looks like a piece of 5 X 20 flat cut about 25 long ( sort of inch by quarter flat ) with a dimple in one end to accept the end of the cam follower/plunger that actuates the pump

It's just jammed/balanced there and will fall out at the drop of a hat - the dimple in its top sort of retains it below the cam follower end

And inside the cam housing, where the IP and oil pump cam runs, there's a vertical actuator rod thingie that follows the cam and operate the oil pump.  It has a mushroom head with a couple of flats machined off two sides of the mushroom.  I can't see anything to stop that rotating; nothing to keep the muhroom head flats parallel to the plane of rotation of the cam lobe - or perpindicular to the cam shaft if you want to think of it that way

Looking at the other things done inside this engine, I wonder if any of that is "non standard"?

I'd appreciate any thoughts

And is there an easy way I am stupidly missing to cut-and-paste an image here - picture worth a thousand words etc?

I appreciate the wisdom

Thanks, Mike

[dieselgman]

At least for the image pasting here... you must first post the image at some static IP address (web hosting for images is prolific and easy), then paste that address into the "img][/img" coding (between the img brackets) during your post entry. It is nice and easy once you've done it a few dozen times!  

I agree that pictures are the way to go when trying to get full descriptions and accurate understanding translated.

dieselgman

[starfire]

Mike, gidday. Pretty much all parts that are cam actuated are mounted slightly offset so they turn during use, this cuts down on wear and grooving. You will notice the valve lifters do this, as does that pump lifter you mention. Here in NZ, they spin in the opposite direction to the northern hemisphere where almost all things run backwards....... thats why noone up there has noticed, its  the new normality for them   
An easy way to set injector timing is to temporarily mount the injector so it squirts on the flywheel rim as the engine is cranked. The oil deposit will show you exactly where in the cycle it opens. This too isnt so critical, but better slightly retarded, ie, at TDC or very slightly after.  This timing can be changed to better suit the fuel you are using, Ive found it can quieten the engine with some fuels. Eventually you will find the best compromise.. Unlike ignition timing with a petrol engine, the pump timing is "flat". Its not an explosion engine but a long burn throughout the expansion stroke, the static timing just sets when the burn  begins, the rack position sets how long it burns for.

[mikenash]

Mike, gidday. Pretty much all parts that are cam actuated are mounted slightly offset so they turn during use, this cuts down on wear and grooving. You will notice the valve lifters do this, as does that pump lifter you mention. Here in NZ, they spin in the opposite direction to the northern hemisphere where almost all things run backwards....... thats why noone up there has noticed, its  the new normality for them   
An easy way to set injector timing is to temporarily mount the injector so it squirts on the flywheel rim as the engine is cranked. The oil deposit will show you exactly where in the cycle it opens. This too isnt so critical, but better slightly retarded, ie, at TDC or very slightly after.  This timing can be changed to better suit the fuel you are using, Ive found it can quieten the engine with some fuels. Eventually you will find the best compromise.. Unlike ignition timing with a petrol engine, the pump timing is "flat". Its not an explosion engine but a long burn throughout the expansion stroke, the static timing just sets when the burn  begins, the rack position sets how long it burns for.

G'day Dayle - interesting thoughts, mate, thanks.

Made myself a pointer and a mark on one flywheel rim for TDC exactly and now have all timings good, I think.  Need to buy a dial gauge and a stand, maybe

 Did the spill timing at 20 degrees BTDC; but noted several comments saying "later is better/safer" here and there - so we'll see.

Marked the valve openings and closings on the flywheel using the "when the pushrod gets loose/tight" method to decide actual opening/closing points then calculated their positions with the steel tape.  Three out of four were only one degree away from "nominal" which says something about a seventy-year-old machine . . .

Have had it firing but not running & it chuffs out smoke from the COV; so I took that out for a look & the gasket ring is shot.

Did the bump/squish measure (I forget what it came out at, might have been 60 thou? I have the figure at work not at home) a bit on the low-compression side even though it only has one base gasket in place.  So while thinking about that and about the COV gasket I bought a glow plug insert from England as my compression - according to the bump - is just the right compromise for that . . . so that will be something to play with as well

Have had the injector pump & injector stripped down to component parts so hope the rack is right as no marks on it - we'll see.  Kept getting slight blockages of the injector nozzle where it would spray a few times and then stop.  Cleaned it out many times with brakleen & compressed air and a piece of very thin copper wire & gthe magnifying glass as my old eyes can't see hole properly otherwise . . . a modern filter is on the shopping list.

I don't have a mental picture of how well/how far/how much that jet/mist from the injector should be, so we'll see if it's OK or not.  Both injector & pump are cheap to replace ex Rob in Australia anyway if I am suspicious of them

Just scavenged a couple of metres of heavy-wall 300 X 70 X 12 channel to make a base that should bring the crank up to a good working height - I'm sure I have some big long 20mm TruBolts somewhere . . .  need about three tonnes of concrete I think.

Tim will tell.  Thanks for your thoughts

Cheers, Mike

[starfire]

Mine is mounted on random railway sleepers buried in the planet.... clay. I found this cushions all the vibes.. It rocks maybe 1.2 inch max  at the rocker cover.. was always a bit wary of cast iron bolted to immovable objects. Dont worry too much about the pump and injector, they have to be completely shagged before the engine wont run. You may need to up the compression a tad to get the first start, madam Listers like long holidays away from work and she will need a helping hand to get back into it...
just pour a teaspoon or two of oil down the inlet before cranking , If she still argues the toss, a FEW drops of petrol should wake her up.... i call this jiggle juice.... mine is a known solvent abuser. Just remember, these were designed to be successfully repaired and used by morons and the brain dead... its too easy to get sidetracked with detail..
The only thing to watch once she starts is to be ready to open the COV if the governor looses control.... they can accelerate frighteningly fast, and if the flywheel disintegrates, its like a standing near an exploding landmine, and i think you would die, and that would be a bugger.
What else? The bump clearance, only important not to have the piston touching the head, and a bit more gap to be safe, remembering carbon buildup over time. really, you only need just enough compression to ignite the fuel, more wastes power... and we are already short with the 3.5...