Author Topic: Indian Valve Guides  (Read 6624 times)

mcreeferson

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Indian Valve Guides
« on: June 28, 2016, 05:11:12 PM »
7/16 is not 11MM Grrr >:(

Original valve stems were 7/16" Indian valves are 11MM. Some of the guides are correctly sized for 7/16 valves, some for 11MM . I have seen brand new heads with 7/16 guides and 11MM valves. Leaving almost .004 of extra clearance. Check this out and correct if needed. 7/16 guides can be knurled and reamed for 11MM valves.

Okay, so the above described valve to guide mismatch applies to my engine. Being the over-thinker that I am, and the fact that I am a sucker for making a project more complicated than it needs to be at every opportunity, I was thinking about sleeving the guides. My thought was to bore the existing guides to 5/8 ID, then press in and bore and brush some bronze sleeves. My thought process behind this is to minimize blow-by, which could offer some small (perhaps very small) increase in efficiency, decrease oil consumption/smoke output, and potentially increase lifespan/TBO. The plan is to go towards the lower end of the range on clearance (.0015-.0025) given bronze's higher COE and greater resistance to galling. It seems from my reading that a closer fit is normally permissible when bronze guides are used.

Info is scarce on the specific alloy that might be the best fit, but from what I can find, and some reading on the alloys themselves, I am leaning towards 544 (phosphorus-bronze) which seems more common in the application, or 954 (aluminum-bronze) which seems like it might be a bit tougher/longer wearing.

Another option I suppose is to replace the guides entirely by machining new bronze versions as well...

Do any of the experts have any input for me on this?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2016, 05:13:50 PM by McReeferson »

Tom

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Re: Indian Valve Guides
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2016, 05:37:52 PM »
I would think the phosphor-bronze is the right material. Keep us informed as I plan to do similar.

I actually have a set of guides that came with drain holes drilled into the side of them! Needless to say the engine smoked like crazy with that head installed and the spring wells filled properly.
Tom
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mcreeferson

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Re: Indian Valve Guides
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2016, 08:00:42 PM »
Keep us informed as I plan to do similar.

Will do.

38ac

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Re: Indian Valve Guides
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2016, 01:35:37 PM »
Sleeveing the guides is fine, it is as you said over engineering.  Most important thing to remember  is to do what ever you decide to do with the guides PRIOR to preforming any seat work because all seat work is piloted on the guide.  It can be corrected if done backwards or bodged but it takes much time and $$

The process gets bashed by people who repeat what they read but I have been knurling valve guides for going on 43 years now,,, but then again I understand the want to modify and improve things.
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buickanddeere

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Re: Indian Valve Guides
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2016, 03:29:47 PM »
Bronze on the exhaust side will cool the valve temperature .

mcreeferson

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Re: Indian Valve Guides
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2016, 02:06:06 PM »
The process gets bashed by people who repeat what they read but I have been knurling valve guides for going on 43 years now,,, but then again I understand the want to modify and improve things.

I am operating under the assumption that you certainly know a hell of a lot more than I do about these things, so please don't take my tangent as me thinking I know better, I most assuredly do not. However, I don't have any tooling or experience with internal knurling, but pressing in a sleeve is no big deal, and boring holes with diameter, location, and perpendicularity tolerances of a tenth or less are squarely in my wheelhouse. I figure it's best to stick with what I am comfortable with so long as you guys see no major flaws in my intended path.

mcreeferson

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Re: Indian Valve Guides
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2016, 02:13:18 PM »
Bronze on the exhaust side will cool the valve temperature .

Hmm, I had kind of glazed right over the cooling aspect. Much of what you read on these topics is for high performance racing engines, I kind of just shrug most of that off as unimportant to my application. Your specific mention of that particular aspect makes me stop and think though, is better heat transfer irrelevant for the most part, a good thing, or potentially a negative with these engines? My limited knowledge does include knowing you don't want to run your engine too cool... What are peoples thoughts on that?

38ac

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Re: Indian Valve Guides
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2016, 02:26:09 PM »
The process gets bashed by people who repeat what they read but I have been knurling valve guides for going on 43 years now,,, but then again I understand the want to modify and improve things.

I am operating under the assumption that you certainly know a hell of a lot more than I do about these things, so please don't take my tangent as me thinking I know better, I most assuredly do not. However, I don't have any tooling or experience with internal knurling, but pressing in a sleeve is no big deal, and boring holes with diameter, location, and perpendicularity tolerances of a tenth or less are squarely in my wheelhouse. I figure it's best to stick with what I am comfortable with so long as you guys see no major flaws in my intended path.

Actually that comment wasn't pointed toward you at all, sorry that it appeared that way.
 It was pointed towards those whose expertise comes from reading but profess otherwise and the cyber world abounds with them.  I read quite often that guide knurling "is a total waste of time" "not effective" etc etc. All of which does not come from practical experience.
.
 What you suggest is great, it is however as I said and you had previously summized,,, overkill  for a 650 RPM diesel with very low exhaust temps.
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dieselgman

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Re: Indian Valve Guides
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2016, 02:57:45 PM »
+1 on the slightly possible lower valve temps involved... (a good thing - but a non-issue). 

The primary issue with the CS valves is preventing carbon from fouling the seats and/or the stems, never valve overheating failures. I wouldn't expect valve temperatures to have any discernible impacts on overall engine temps.

dieselgman
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mcreeferson

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Re: Indian Valve Guides
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2016, 11:34:07 AM »
"Actually that comment wasn't pointed toward you at all, sorry that it appeared that way. "

No need for apologies, I just wanted to be sure that you (and you guys in general on here) understood my appreciation of your contributions to the community. I tend to go off the reservation with overdoing things, it's just the way my head works, but let's be clear, I wouldn't even know where to start without the info shared here on this board.

buickanddeere

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Re: Indian Valve Guides
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2016, 10:27:33 PM »
+1 on the slightly possible lower valve temps involved... (a good thing - but a non-issue). 

The primary issue with the CS valves is preventing carbon from fouling the seats and/or the stems, never valve overheating failures. I wouldn't expect valve temperatures to have any discernible impacts on overall engine temps.

dieselgman

Engines fueled on kerosene or light diesel will have less ash and soot accumulate if the lube oil is low ash SC-2 rated for two stroke Detroit Diesels.

dieselgman

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Re: Indian Valve Guides
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2016, 11:28:15 PM »
Lister called for a 1,000 hour decarbon maintenance on these engines and on most of their other diesels running conventional fuels and lube oils. I have seen many of these run considerably longer than that between maintenances without any troubles, but the manufacturer's specifications are a good guide to general performance expectations. The water injection cleaning methods described on this forum are certainly a viable way to reduce or eliminate that decarbon maintenance need. However, once the valve stems get sticky in the guides, and their seat seal gets compromised, performance can go downhill quite rapidly.

As far as the net effects of running low-ash lube oils goes; I would think that it might help slightly as far as carbon build-up is concerned, but not likely to be a large factor in the bigger maintenance picture.

dieselgman
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 01:42:40 AM by dieselgman »
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