Author Topic: Mounting my Roid.  (Read 20967 times)

guest22972

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Mounting my Roid.
« on: April 17, 2016, 05:58:42 PM »

Haven't had the roid going in quite some time but now due to some untimely changes around the place, I want to set it up and have some fun with it again.

I am going to make a semi permanent shed for it in the yard next to the fence. I am planing to do this with some scaffolding I have and put a cover and sides on it with some roofing iron.  As I am trying to sell the house, I don't want to do anything too permanent but I would like to have it going before I go.

The thing is pretty badly balanced which is why I stopped using it before. I have read all about the balancing methods here but had no success. In any case, I need to bolt the thing down again before I can do anything and it needs to be secure so it dosen't walk off or rip the mountings out. 
Last time I had it mounted on some hardwood fence posts that were Dynabolted to the concrete slab. They were about 4x2" and the Roid flexed them pretty easily.  I have since gathered all the biggest slabs of wood I can find but now the difficulty will be bolting them down.

How and what can I do to bolt the thing down to the concrete driveway without going to too much trouble as I could be out of here in 3 months. I'm not worried about the thing thumping through the slab or noise, in fact I'm happy for it to do that. The new neighbor has put us through an absolute hell and mystery the last 13 months with his totally and completely inconsiderate and self serving building work and I'm determined to get some back before I go.  Today I spent the day working my arse off cleaning up where one of the idiots he employed knocked over my 1.5 ton Pizza oven with his excavator. 13 years that thing has been there then the arsewipe trys to tell me the frame I built it on wasn't strong enough.  I told him, If I knew some idiot with an excavator was going to come along and knock it over, I would have mounted a shotgun on it so it could defend itself.
But thats just the latest in a virtual daily series of grief.

The roid will be situated on the fence between his kitchen and main living area and under his upstairs bedroom. I have checked with the local council and I can run my engine from 7am  till 5pm. Unlike his building works that repeatedly started at 5 AM and finished at 9:30PM, I intend to stick to the rules and regulations to the T. I'm going to set it up driving an induction motor set up as a generator. I'll rectify the 3 phase output back to DC and feed that into a solar inverter which will back feed into the mains and spin my meter backwards when all the power isn't being used.

So, any suggestions on the timber or otherwise to mount the roid to the slab so it doesn't walk all over the joint and the best way of fixing it to the concrete?
I'd like to try an app I found for a phone which is a very fine balancing tool and get the thing smoothed out but if it thumps a while before that happens, no probs. I do also have some steel I could use but I don't want the noise of the thing to drive me nuts or any other neighbors.

I'm also going to have to figure out a starting system, even if it is make a start handle for it which It never came with.

guest23837

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Re: Mounting my Roid.
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2016, 07:15:28 PM »
I have seen a couple of C/S engines mounted on a 4 wheeled trailer with inflated rubber tyres that did a good job on the vibrations. One I saw was made with H iron and another seemed to be 1/2" steel plate. Not sure if that would help with the imbalance

BruceM

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Re: Mounting my Roid.
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2016, 11:58:57 PM »
Urethane glue (Gorilla brand here in the US is my favorite)  is what we used to glue down my neighbor's new wood frame. Works great and could be knocked off with a sledge and crow bar later when moving.  Just keep it small and towards the outside edge if temporary. 

38ac's thread covered his flywheel matching process. I think it's brilliant. It saved me a lot of time and fiddling.  It  makes any subsequent balance tweaks a snap because you either add equally to each counterweight if it's a hopper, or add opposite the counterweights if it moving fore and aft. Given that you have already tried some experimenting without luck, I'd say chances are 99% that your flywheels are very badly matched. 







BruceM

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Re: Mounting my Roid.
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2016, 12:05:07 AM »
The wood frame that I've been using for 10+ years is 2x6's crosswise (fully planked) over 4x6 posts laid on the 6" face.  Glued and screwed, with deep lag bolts into the 4x6's for engine hold downs. No trouble with it at all.  It was supposed to be temporary for testing...but now it seems it may it may outlast me.  We copied it for my neighbors new DES propane 8/1 conversion, only leaving out the rubber pads I put under mine.  As I suspected, the rubber was totally unnecessary, he has no vibration of his shed floor (concrete pad) at all.

EdDee

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Re: Mounting my Roid.
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2016, 10:04:43 AM »
Hey Glort,

+1 for a balancing job first.... Static Balance the wheels and match them in counterweight - I did one a LONG time ago as follows:

Take each wheel off and put it on an axle - individually - make up a couple of flat bar topped stands of the same height and put the wheel with axle between them so it can find its own heavy side. Make sure the counterweight hangs as close as possible to the bottom, if it doesnt, add weights at about the horizontal plane to get the counterweight to hit bottom dead center (a magnet with some old nuts and washers works well) - When you have the weight you need, fix a "neat weight" made up of a single piece of ms or even wheel balancing weights to the inner side of the rim. Sounds complex, but its quite straight forward... Ensure you put the CG of the neat weight at exactly the same spot that the temp weight was on...

Do the same for the other wheel.

Now, here's the trick: Put the 2 wheels on the axle with the counterweights 180 degrees to each other... A small wedge in the keyway will hold them in place... You will probably find one counterweight is lighter than the other, this will cause quite a jump, rock and roll when running.. Very difficult to iron out as at a particular rev, one side calms down, at another rev, the other calms down. ne'er the twain shall meet!

Add weight to the  "Lighter" counterweighted wheel until it no longer favours topside when it is nudged to spin... Job Done!

Once its running, add to, or 180 degrees to, the weighted sides to stop jump or slide at a particular rev...(50% to each side, matched)

The most formidable thing is removing the wheels... with your ingenuity, it should be a doddle!!

Having seen the jump and thump caused by an 80g imbalance/side on my roid, I would consider this as the first thing to do in the future... The old Listers were way better matched in the wheel dept than the clones.......Less Jump and bounce = less beefy frame needed!

Good luck with the neighbours....

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
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BruceM

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Re: Mounting my Roid.
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2016, 04:44:04 PM »
When the engine is balanced properly, there is no need for bolts from a wood base to the slab;  just urethane glue is more than adequate. Mine (10 years, 3000 hrs) is done that way, so is my neighbors.  You'll have to use a pry bar and a sledge hammer to chisel it off, as if you just pry it, you'll split off wood before the urethane glue fails.  So if it's temporary, don't use much! 





BruceM

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Re: Mounting my Roid.
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2016, 04:55:07 PM »
Yes, that looks like a true urethane glue.  They expand as they start to cure so you must be careful about that (clamps or weight).

When the engine is balanced properly, there is no need for bolts from a wood base to the slab;  just urethane glue is more than adequate. Mine (10 years, 3000 hrs) is done that way, so is my neighbors.  You'll have to use a pry bar and a sledge hammer to chisel it off, as if you just pry it, you'll split off wood before the urethane glue fails.  So if it's temporary, don't use much!  

Here's my woodworker's version of 38ac's static balancing setup.  You just have to get the the wheels to hang statically with counterweight down by adding stick on wheel weights inside the rim, then measure the total counterweight with a string, can and weights opposite the counterweight.  Add weight to your lighter counterweight so they both match.  After that, mount and run, add to counterweight if a jumper, one ounce to each flywheel, try again.  This is 38ac's method, and after switching to it, I'm impressed at the simplicity and time savings.







« Last Edit: April 18, 2016, 05:05:00 PM by BruceM »

EdDee

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Re: Mounting my Roid.
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2016, 09:24:36 AM »
Hey Glort,

The first time you remove a wheel, you will sweat blood! The first time I removed one off of my beast, it took me the best part of 2 hours, and that was with a new machine that wasn't rusted up in the wheel department....

Then I sat back and went through the memory banks on how I used to do it 35 years ago, on old, rusty, neglected equipment.... And all of a sudden it dawned on me.... Nowadays, I have all the right tools, all the right machines, presses and pullers.... I used all of the "right" stuff, yet I just about shat myself to get the wheel loose...

Next one I did "farm style" - Pulled off the head, dropped a block of wood into the cylinder (Actually a off-cut piece of roof timber, planed sides top and bottom, nipped the corners off so it was a fairly close octagonal fit to the bore), put the head back on and pulled it to about 50ft lbs, no pushrods installed. Pulled the Gib key out using a puller made from an old 2" pipe flange and 3 bolts, oiled into the keyway, cracked a cold one and had a few sips, rocked the flywheel back and forth to bounce it against the wood block, sipped more ale, added oil to the keyway, rocked the flywheel, kept on through the next ale.... after about 20 min of rocking back and forth the flywheel came loose on the crankshaft... In all, a far more relaxing way of doing things.... Quite enjoyable actually....

All in, it cost me about 2 hours in total for the second wheel, that included making up the puller for the gib key, removing the head etc... While I was at it, I pulled the flywheels off TM2, they took me about 10min each.... I "cheated" by pulling both gib keys and getting a mate to anchor one flywheel manually while I put a bit of grunt into turning the other by the rim by hand. One flywheel loosened. I put the gib key in by hand and rocked the flywheel back and forth quite gently just bumping it into the key.. In all, about 1/2" rim travel back and forth... Within about 5 bumps, the other flywheel loosened and I was able to move it to its new position on the shaft....

Sometimes, a difficult and daunting job is not actually difficult or daunting once you do it.... Granted, there have been times where a flywheel is an absolute SOB(In my case, these have been an exception though...Mostly because I wasn't thinking "lazy")... But... It might also be a case that they will come off quite easily... you don't know unless you try... The golden rule to follow is: Don't stuff it up!! If you see there is a chance of damaging something, STOP.... At worst, if you follow this, you will end up knowing that you cant pull the wheels off yourself. At best, you end up with a beautifully balance machine that doesn't require dentist bills from standing next to it while it is running. (Putting all your fillings back in the following day...)

Give it a try....

Cheerz
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
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BruceM

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Re: Mounting my Roid.
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2016, 03:48:28 PM »
For pulling I"ve used both a puller from India that pulls from the end of the shaft, and a hand sledge driven taper ground in a former pry bar handle. (Hardened steel, .25"" thick) Either works, both take a lot of force.

 I think how bad the pull is depends on which guy with a sledge drove them home in Rajkot.  Since the gib keys aren't fitted properly, they seem to think that a bigger sledge is the way to go.  I hand fit with a black felt tip marker and a file to get better contact without so much force.


dieselspanner

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Re: Mounting my Roid.
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2016, 09:41:44 PM »
For what it,s worth.....

Mine were rustier than the Titanic's main anchor.

Somewhere (on here, i think) I saw a 10 ton jack used side ways with a length of decent chain in a 'figure of eight' around the spokes, the head of the jack on the crankshaft and the chain shackled into loop under the jack, with the lot supported on a block of wood until the tension kept it all lined up.

Bush engineering 'Par excellence'  as they say around here, I had to try it.....

Obviously the jack will only work in one position, pump down, I think, 'cos it's only set up to work vertically, with plenty of penetrating oil they both came off with no trouble at all.

I did think I'd have to use a small length of 2" id tube to keep the jack on the shaft but once the the setup was under tension it all stayed steady, no slipping whatsoever.

I've since reversed the trick to push the crankshaft bearings into the carriers, by setting up between the door posts of my stone barn.

Worth remembering,

Cheers Stef

 
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

EdDee

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Re: Mounting my Roid.
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2016, 09:50:12 AM »
Hi Glort,

The keys usually are the PITA things to remove, depending on how hard they were belted in with a sledgehammer... I don't think the twist on tube will give enough strength, it may, but for the effort involved, it will be easier and better in the long run to use an old weld on pipe flange in my opinion. On 2 of the keys I removed from my 2 roids, the pipe flange bent considerably during the first pullout - they were hit in way to tight... I was actually quite concerned that the head would separate on the keys, that is how much pull was required.... Bear in mind, it was a 4 hole flange about 8mm thick that I used to make the puller.... Quite "strong" to say the least. The added advantage gained by using the flange, was that the slack could be adjusted out of the pull, leaving the flange at a slight angle, closest to the hub on the far side from the key. By putting force on the far key side bolts when it is angled, you put immense tension on the key with a considerable advantage as a lever-system.

The crankshaft is parallel sided, no tapers, just regular cylindrical. Once the key is removed, the only thing that holds the wheels in place is generally a bit of seeped in paint or corrosion from the odd water splash or so. On the last few I have pulled, there has been a fairly generous clearance once the shaft was cleaned up. I used the figure 8 Chain and jackbolt to pull one wheel of the four. I sweated. I cursed. I threw spanners. It worked. I then went and cracked a cold one! The next 3 I did by loosening them on the shaft using rotary motion instead of axial tension... I smiled. I relaxed. I celebrated with a few cold ones!! Just ensure that the crankshaft is as clean as you can get it to make the final slide off easy. If you feel it is tightening on its trip, push it back on and look for the problem. I found on one of the roids that the keyways were badly cut and had some burrs that needed cleaning up.

Getting a wheel back on is probably the easiest of all, slides on with minimal effort once you have it lined up (an engine hoist works well here, raise it to just below the level of the crankshaft and with one hand, grab the sling that is looped around the rim and pinch it together with your hand. This gives you about 1 to 2mm of additional "fine-control" lift to get things spot on.) Don't belt the keys in like they were before, as they start to seat, the flywheel will start to "ring", as the key seats. A couple more taps with a medium size ball-peen hammer and a brass drift is all that is required. Install a pair of "key keepers" for good measure while you are at it... There are plenty of threads here regarding gib key fitting, none have been way off track, use whatever method suits you best, but don't overdo it India-style!

I went the route of balancing apps, chalk marks, chanting at midnight and consulting all of the oracles in the area... I had limited success, or then again, maybe I had no success and I just felt better. After pulling and balancing each wheel individually, there is definite improvement... So much so that I have vowed to never run one of these beasts without pulling the wheels and balancing them first.... (I even ordered a new piece of 2" ground stock shafting to use on the balancer... and... I am a tight-assed, tight-fisted SOB by my own admission... So that must say something!!  :) )

Now... About the steel balls in a clear tube.... I am not so wild about that... assuming that you are turning the wheels at about 650rpm or so, the balls are about 3/4" in diameter, there are around 20 or so in each tube... that works out to about a 1ga punt gun if they escape.... How good is your body armor? (or your neighbor's, or the school in the next suburb.... oh wait, that incident with the pizza oven....don't worry about the neighbor!...)

The centramatic system you vid'd is cute, but I certainly wouldn't use anything other than at minimum a decently strong piece of heavy-wall hydraulic pipe to keep things on the premises at the revs/diameter of a roid wheel....

Lets go right back to basics.....Remember those dimples drilled in the old car flywheels at the scrapyard... I kinda think that this would be the safest way still, but in the absence of that, the opposite by SECURELY bolting on a balancing weight on the wheel would be the next best thing....

Keep it spinning....(safely)

Cheers
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

BruceM

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Re: Mounting my Roid.
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2016, 06:39:22 PM »
+1 for Ed's comment on taking the trouble to pull the wheels and get them statically balanced and matched.  It's worth the effort.  38ac knows what he's doing, his method gets the job done fast and no fussing.

I use stick on wheel weights inside the rims for test, then clean the rim and epoxy (JB weld) in place, inside the rim.  I don't see any point in bolts.  There is no real force on the glue, since the weights are inside the flywheel rim.  The standard stick on weight adhesive is good for about a year or more, but oil will eventually make it fail.  Drilling to balance seems like too much work.

Sculpy brand plastic clay in 2-4 oz gobs is perfect for test weights- it sticks inside the rim nicely.




Quinnf

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Re: Mounting my Roid.
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2016, 05:09:31 AM »
I once started my 'roid when working on it.  The gib key was loose and I was trying to figure out how much to shim it.  I started the engine for just a few seconds and a gib key came loose, dropped off the crankshaft, then was batted by one of the spokes and hit me in the chest.  It cut a hole in my T-shirt and left a big triangle-shaped purple-blue divot that hurt like the devil.  Could have been worse.  Had it hit me in an eye . . .

Quinn


 
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EdDee

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Re: Mounting my Roid.
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2016, 09:38:56 AM »
Hi Glort,

Having caught multiple missiles (sometimes inadvertently) launched at me in my past youth, I tend to shy away from potential ballistic contact! My reasoning is simple and suits me! We own and run a paintball range, now here is how I base my simplistic calculations on the discomfort index - A paintball weighs in around 3g and travels at about 300ft/sec max.... Up close, a hit on bare skin will make you jump and curse... Take a ball-bearing of around, say 30g and shunt it downrange at 40m/s... round figures or 110ft/sec or so.... comes out to around 3x the energy with about 1/4 the sectional impact area.... that's gonna do a bit more than surprise you! ... I have been hit by ricochets before, both mechanical and ballistic, not fun and by and large in an uncontrolled environment they are unpredictable to say the least.... But, enough said! With reasonable cautions taken, the chances of damage to life and property decrease dramatically...

Dont be scared of pulling the Gibs, just bear in mind that they might be quite tight. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. The flange was notched as you described it and I did rotate it 180 once I slipped it over the key. Dont weld it, if anything, put a small brass shim of sorts on the opposite side between the crankshaft and flange inner to stop it hurting the crank... Once you get the knack on the first pull, you will probs wonder why you were shitting yourself before you started, its not so bad, actually.... Fair to say though, it "might" be tighter than you can handle, but it more likely will not...

The power pulses on the centra units might, no, probably will, mess things around, looking at the "damping" oil used, I would actually suggest a thin grease might be a better option.... Why not mention this to them? To test this "theory", I put some new, good old fashioned, linseed based, window putty in a fillet around the inside of TM1's flywheel to see how it "flowed" under rev... quite interesting, it actually does start to flow quite a bit... The mean diameter is around 550mm and at 750RPM... A thin grease would probably flow like syrup on that size 'fuge...

At my guess, the centra units need a bit of shaft "jump" to allow the unit to balance - a la' suspension and cushioned tyre on a road... A rigidly mounted shaft might not have enough deflection to allow the balls to relocate.... This would possibly present problems for industrial type applications...

Just thinking out loud here.... A roid single has around a kg of unbalanced reciprocating mass if I remember, I can get more accurate numbers if you want, I have them written down somewhere... This thump and bounce, never mind the power stroke, is probably going to prove quite interesting to even out with the centra units.... My mind has just blanked out trying to picture the force vectors involved.... Lol... Still, if it costs little but time to install and test, it would be a worthwhile experiment I reckon, but my money is still on the fixed weight balance each wheel system... Where the centra unit would be better, if it works out, is with the lads that are running their roids at various rpm's - ie those that have a low/med/high rpm/power setting on their units for charging and inverter running under various loads....

Agreed, safety nuts can go a bit overboard... This sensationalist attention grabbing alarmist behavior is part of the "new world" we live in... Apply reasonable caution, along with good common sense, and most situations are seldom life threatening. As Quinn said, "Could have been worse..." .... More injury could easily be caused by a simple unattached flywheel slide off while lifting... an easy oversight with serious consequences.. Common sense says stay away from big heavy things that could possibly fall on you... The number of times I do heavy lifting around here and still have to caution interested onlookers to get the F away from the big heavy bits is alarming... Common sense just aint so common anymore... The lemming genetics must be part of a dormant gene that is starting to re-awaken with the use of cellphones...

Enough ranting from my side... I gotta go weld up some roof beams on a 3m high roof... Now where is that safety harness, the safety belt, the safety shoes, the safety glasses, the safety overall, the safety gloves, the safety helmet, the safety..........fuggit, by the time I am kitted out I will look like the Michelin man, I'll just take my chances.....

Keep it spinning...

Cheers
Ed

12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

38ac

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Re: Mounting my Roid.
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2016, 12:03:28 PM »
Thanks for the kudos Bruce, ;D just farmboy common sense really.
Even with the gibb key trials you will be glad you pulled the wheels.
The flange type puller for the keys has worked for me 100% of the time on everything from rust bucket Dursley built Listers to brand new 'roids.  Mine was made in the shop and the three bolts are not evenly spaced. Two on either side of the key and one on the other side just to keep it from cocking on the shaft.  Most of the horror stories come from people who try to get along with something less than a good puller, screw the keys up and then cry for help. 
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