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Author Topic: I'm gonna take her down..  (Read 8262 times)

32 coupe

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I'm gonna take her down..
« on: December 04, 2015, 10:03:13 PM »
I bought my Merto several years ago from Sam.

I checked her over, built a heavy frame with a 7.5 ST head
serpentine belt and put her to work. No clean up, no bronze
gear.

I have about 200 hours on it and have had no problems. BUT after
hearing everyone's warnings and the latest posting of a members
engine failure I have decided to finally break her down.

I did the usuall break in and several checks of the bearings during
the 200 hours and it shows no problems but I sure don't want a failure
so this weekend I will begin a disassembly and rebuild.

Fear has me worried now !

Wish me luck and I will let you guys how it goes.

Gary

« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 10:18:41 PM by 32 coupe »
Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
Ashwamegh 2/25
John Deere 110 TBL
New Holland TC 30

"I was sitting here reading this thinking what an idiot you are until I realized it was one of my earlier posts !"

carlb23

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Re: I'm gonna take her down..
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2015, 11:15:16 AM »
I am also running a metro from sam that i got back in 2006.  I did pull it apart before running it and only found a very small amount of sand at that time.  I tore mine down this spring due to an overheating problem arose and while the engine was still running fine, i thought it a good time to pull it apart.  The only thing i found after an exhaustive inspection and a lot of poking and prodding were a few grains of sand and slight wear on the big end bearings.   I put it back together and it is still running fine.

I only use this as a backup so it doesn't have a whole lot of hours on it, but, we did have a three day power outage this summer and it got a pretty good workout running 12 to 16 hours a day for those three days.

EdDee

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Re: I'm gonna take her down..
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2015, 11:28:29 PM »
Hey 32...

Hope its not me that scared you.... bear in mind, if it was me, read the full thread... I have worked my roid hard and pretty much flat out for 1600hrs before it failed....and virtually all of that was on really crappy sump gunk being used as fuel....

Good luck with the teardown and check!

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

BruceM

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Re: I'm gonna take her down..
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2015, 01:39:20 AM »
I'd just pull the upper big end bearing shell and look for sand damage.  If it's clean, you should be fine for your application.




32 coupe

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Re: I'm gonna take her down..
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2015, 07:40:11 PM »

Ed......yes, because of your failure to a point.

Bruce........I have checked the upper shell several times during the 200
or so hours.

In my mind, because I did not do a break down when I got the engine,
I think it's more than a question of IF. It's more like WHEN.
I think I should at least do the best prep I can and no visual inspection
of every surface leaves a lot of room for "if only I had looked at that".
Now I wished I would have done it to begin with. But it needs a good
cleaning and paint job as well. The original paint is flakeing off everywhere.

I think.she smokes a little more that it should so it will give me a chance to
inspect.the cylinder as well.

I didn't get much done today other than soak, pressure wash and blow.dry.

Stay tuned !

Gary


« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 07:44:19 PM by 32 coupe »
Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
Ashwamegh 2/25
John Deere 110 TBL
New Holland TC 30

"I was sitting here reading this thinking what an idiot you are until I realized it was one of my earlier posts !"

EdDee

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Re: I'm gonna take her down..
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2015, 10:06:31 PM »
Hi Gary,

With a cast motor such as the roid we are playing with, it is virtually impossible to prevent with certainty any included sand or scale from emerging at some point as an end user... particularly with splash lubed systems... The best that can be realistically done is to inspect thoroughly and take as many precautions that you can. Going overboard will drive you nuts with the what ifs.... By all means, if you are suspect of the casting or its sealing coat of whatever, strip it down to bare metal and do the best you can... but remember, there will ALWAYS be a chance of a sand pocket that is just below the depth that you cleaned to... Short of x-raying all the castings, you will never know what lies beneath... The same applies to flywheels ... is it really 100% sound? Just a bump while moving the beast could cause a hairline crack that could lead to a failure...  Right, now that I have probably scared the smelly stuff out of you, bear in mind.... these engines are running on a design that has been around for what... 100 or so years, technology essentially unchanged, methods roughly the same as they were built originally, materials probably a bit better than the originals... yep, even the casting steel probably... Its just that now we have become a whole lot wiser and know what causes them to break down... The best method I use with this situation is to simply come to terms with the situation, if something goes wrong, well so be it... inspect as often as you can, but expect the unexpected, this certainly was the instance with my last experience... I know that I was running the beast hard, I expected a failure in the upper area of the engine, but that was not what fate had in mind flow me.... no matter how much casting sand or needle descaling I could have done, the outcome would have been exactly the same, at the same time, with the same damage... Sure, if I had taken the time to remove the oil feed pipes, take them apart, unseat the joints in the pipes, resweat them and make sure that they were sound to my satisfaction, I MIGHT have prevented the failure... but hell, who knows, maybe in the heating and cooling of those pipes, I might have just caused a crack that would have failed in another area...

We are not dealing with a critical piece of kit that will cause global catastrophe if it breaks down... At worst, a bruised ego(that can be dealt with) or a bruised bank account(that sometimes hurts more than the ego)....

Don't stress, have fun, take care..... And above all.... ENJOY!

Regds
Ed

PS- Gary, how old is your roid now... in human years... not hours run?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 10:09:13 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

32 coupe

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Re: I'm gonna take her down..
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2015, 11:46:18 PM »
 
I think I got the Metro 6/1 sometime around 2006 or 2007

I didn't do anything except check bearings top off the oil and
fire it up. I run a 3200 watt load being a pair of junkyard space heaters.

I purchased an Aswamegh 25/2 at a later date and spent  a few happy hours
with a needle scaller removing a fair amount of casting sand.

I don't use.these.engines as backup power, they are just toys for me. They are
a good form of therapy for me and just a heck of a lot of fun to play with !

I will use the needle scaller on the Metro along with cleaning, priming,  paint
and a critical reassembly and setup.

If if blows up.down the road I will.know I did the best I could as far as prep goes.

When I pressure washed it today it was funny to see how flat (dull) the paint was
once all.the oil.was.removed !!

Carry on !
Gary

Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
Ashwamegh 2/25
John Deere 110 TBL
New Holland TC 30

"I was sitting here reading this thinking what an idiot you are until I realized it was one of my earlier posts !"

BruceM

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Re: I'm gonna take her down..
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2015, 01:00:07 AM »
I was very happy with the red electrical varnish (spray can) (generic Glyptol) for interior finish. Smooth hard finish, easy to swab the sump, and easy to apply.  Allegedly one of the better interior engine finishes.  We did find lots of areas with sand just painted over in the corners.  We didn't want to take chances on the prime power for an off grid home.




 

carlb23

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Re: I'm gonna take her down..
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2015, 12:00:16 PM »
engine builders have been using Glyptal on the interior of engines ever since I can remember back in the early 70's with great success.  While i didn't take my metro down to bear metal and coat the interior since it looked good, I have used it in the past on many race engines and have never had a problem.

32 coupe

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Re: I'm gonna take her down..
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2015, 12:32:44 PM »

When I did my Ashwamegh I used white rustoleum. It takes time to dry but
the white gives a nice bright background when looking for foreign materials.
Seems to have held up well after 2 years plus.

Gary

Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
Ashwamegh 2/25
John Deere 110 TBL
New Holland TC 30

"I was sitting here reading this thinking what an idiot you are until I realized it was one of my earlier posts !"

38ac

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Re: I'm gonna take her down..
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2015, 02:36:27 PM »


With a cast motor such as the roid we are playing with, it is virtually impossible to prevent with certainty any included sand or scale from emerging at some point as an end user...

I respectfully disagree however going the entire route is paramount, a person simply cannot cut corners and expect a permanent fix.

1 Clean via hot caustic- to remove paint and all traces of oil.
2 Inspect and chip- To remove all sand and slag that can be practically removed.
3 Seal- Using any one  of several proven coatings so the remaining sand and slag stays put and doesn't end up circulating.

I use a varnish similar to Gyptol, Gary at D.E.S.  uses two part epoxies, others use Rustoleum, all will work on properly prepped clean surfaces.  NONE work over oils or loose garbage.  I have been into engines and gear boxes that the insides were painted a VERY long time ago and the paint was still in perfect condition. Its all a matter of prep work and good materials.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 02:57:21 PM by 38ac »
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

EdDee

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Re: I'm gonna take her down..
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2015, 04:09:12 PM »
Hi 38ac,

We will have to agree to disagree on this one, or do we actually agree in essence...Lol...

If I might recount something: I too have been into original boxes and engines, once upon a time, long, long ago, I had an old Lister that came to me for a check-over, the owner wasn't too happy with the repair agent and just wanted a second opinion of the work done(which was fine actually), when I popped the door off and had a look see, there was a "shell shaped chip" in the paintwork in the splash tray... it probably happened at some point while the repair agent was doing bearings and went unnoticed by them... When I gave it a bit of poking and prodding, with a small hammer and chisel (it was a delicate job....Lol) ... a large flake of casting with sand inclusions presented itself, around 1.5" diameter... What was interesting was the fact that the paint held this bit sealed in place for probably 20 or more years of running, prior to something bumping it just in the right place/way and presenting potential for a good bit of consequent bearing wear... The area below the chip and paint were wet with fresh, clean oil... so no ways was this an old chip and ding....

Any casting, unless x-rayed, could have small pockets and inclusions, surface inspection can only inspect the surface appearance of the casting, not what lies beneath the surface... It might take a knock, an acid wash from a contaminated batch of sump oil getting wet, a bump from dropping a spanner on it for it to present itself.... caustic cleaning will get rid of surface muck, close inspection will show you potential problem areas, chipping at these problem areas SHOULD go a long way to exposing them fully.... Sealing them afterward should/will take care of preventing casting muck from getting into the sump...until the unexpected happens, a spanner drops and chips the coating and you begin all over again...

You hit the nail right on the head where you said "that can be practically removed" - its impractical(by my opinion) to try and make a space age quality piece of kit out of a roid...BUT... you can do what you are capable of doing, and in doing so, prolong the life of the machine... If you are capable and have the means/time to do x-rays on the castings to look for inclusions, do it... If you have ultrasonic probing equipment that can do similar, do it... if you only have a sealant and a paint brush, and don't have the means, time nor technical expertise to descale and look for sand, then coat it after a good soap cleaning... all would be better than it was before...

But hey, that's what all the fun is about... Build them up, wear em down, begin again, and above all - have fun!

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

BruceM

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Re: I'm gonna take her down..
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2015, 01:50:17 AM »
+1 for 38ac's opinion.  When you do go through the Rajkot sump area carefully with needle scaler/die grinder, you find plenty of pockets of sand just under the paint.  Many- like most inside corners, next to casting flash, etc.   While we all know that what comes from Rajkot is wildly varing in quality- for any serious use it just makes sense to clean up the crankcase and not trust the enamel applied in Rajkot.  Some vendors did occasionally do much better, and maybe Ed's is one who currently is. 

EdDee

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Re: I'm gonna take her down..
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2015, 07:12:44 AM »
Hi Bruce,

That's what makes these babies so nice to work on! These singles will run as standard, we all know that... the more work you put into them, the longer they run(and the less they wear)...

To use a needle descaler/caustic bath/die grinder could just be beyond the limit of the absolute newbie who starts in this hobby.. This hobby is not only for the person who wants to play with Uncle Otto's invention, it is also a wonderful springboard to get to grips with tools and machining and very much practical processes too.

So often are the most basic questions overlooked or not answered... This forum is brilliant in that virtually every question that gets asked, gets answered or referred to an area where the answers are... and above all, you guys are not afraid to give an honest opinion!! Awesome!!

It is absolutely scary to see nowadays how many people have little to no practical experience in things technical - this forum, and you guys in particular, are passing across a wealth of knowledge and experience for no gain whatsoever - Well done!!

But, back to the subject at hand - as 38ac said, and you agreed Bruce (and if you read carefully, I do too) - Put as much into the cleanup as you practically can, it will pay you back in the long run!

Keep it spinning!!

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

32 coupe

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Re: I'm gonna take her down..
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2015, 12:36:57 PM »

My Ashwamegh was loaded with sand. Most was in the top inside corners
under the deck. And yes, buried under paint and casting flash.

I'm sure it would not have lasted long.

I'm glad I took the time to clean it up.

Gary


Metro 6/1 turning a ST 7.5 KW gen head
Changfa 1115 turning a ST 15 KW gen head
Ashwamegh 2/25
John Deere 110 TBL
New Holland TC 30

"I was sitting here reading this thinking what an idiot you are until I realized it was one of my earlier posts !"