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Author Topic: Accidents involving Listeroids?  (Read 56280 times)

barry100

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Re: Accidents involving Listeroids?
« Reply #75 on: November 22, 2007, 08:19:36 AM »
Hi all
several years ago a (Indian? I was told)  Lister blew a flywheel in Perth, Western Australia. one man was killed and the other lost a hand it was a poor casting, but there is always a danger if you over speed a flywheel not designed for a fast speed
Barry

jimdunne

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Re: Accidents involving Listeroids?
« Reply #76 on: November 22, 2007, 03:55:57 PM »
It was said it was a non-standard 16/1 Indian Lister running one of the oversize wheels in excess of the safe cast iron 7500 FPM rim speed.

Yes, it was also said there were severe casting irregularities which weakened the flywheel.

Yes, there has not been a "definitive" report despite much looking. Would love to hear a first hand report.

If you have a 6/1 (or 12/2), etc) with 23.5" six spoke wheels running at even 850 RPM, you have a four to one engineered safety margin.

This has been reported on several times.


 




Doug

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Re: Accidents involving Listeroids?
« Reply #77 on: November 22, 2007, 05:56:12 PM »
Yes there has been a confirmed report of a 6/1 Metro fly wheel hub failure. I have pictures of it.
The failure was caused by a bad casting and some conflicting info about the gib key coming loose ( but then that would be an early warning sign that something was wrong.

The owner shut the machine down before it blew apart.

When the gib key was removed ( hub tapped or something to that end ) the next day to investigate the asssmebly fell apart.

No injury but very close.

Jack said he suspects he has a void in on of the spokes on MT1 because based on some measurements when ballancing but no other issues ( engine ran 7000 hours but was a shaker ).
The JKSon fly wheels on MT2 is said to have ballance much easier that leads me to believe JKSon has some much better castings than othes.

I would be inclined to follow up on the sorts of sugestions and  observation Jack made with his engines, if something is out of ballance and there is no obvious reason there may be a void in a spoke.
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jimdunne

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Re: Accidents involving Listeroids?
« Reply #78 on: November 23, 2007, 01:37:25 AM »
That is not true, the reference was about "over speed(ing) a flywheel not designed for a fast speed". It was not about Metro hub failures.

If you run your automobile with loose lug nuts, it is a certain thing that the wheel will fail, through no fault of its own.

If a Listeroid is run with the gib key loose, sooner or later the flywheel will fail, through no fault of its own.

(The following comments from this forum in December 2006)

Quinn said "It's from a  6/1  he says, that suddenly began knocking, so he shut it down.  Next morning, he found the gib key lying on the ground and the flywheel rim cracked almost clear through.  Reaching across a cracked flywheel to hit the stop lever like he did, he's lucky to be alive."

Tim (the owner)said "The void at the bottom of the picture goes within 1/2 inch of the outside.The motor was not running at the time i found the cracks , i shut it down last night because of a knock. This motor has 3615 hours on it since june 26"

Tim (the owner) then said "The flywheel was cracked two places. I took a John13 special tool and broke it off in order to put another one on [special tool, sledge hammer]"

And the owner does not say "the asssmebly"  fell apart. He says he broke it off. Quinn also says the key was lying on the ground, not "when the gib key was removed"

Doug, please be accurate. There are enough issues on this forum without ones like yours being posted.

If you have privileged information that the key fell out because it was tight, and the flywheel just got tired of being so tightly bound by a poor-fitting Indian gib key, please let us know.

There is a bit more information that seems to be relevant. The first is from Bob G, a first class diesel mechanic with 40 some years of experience. He said on 19 December 2006, in this forum: "


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   Re: Danger: Broken Flywheel
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2006, 08:04:23 PM »
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ok guys i am going to err on the side of safety here.

if you have an engine that you discover knocking or poorly fitted jib keys, or one that has had the living crap beat out of it in installation

Remove the flywheels and have the hubs magnafluxed!

it is clear as mud that the crack was there from the assembly of that engine, had any evidence of a knock or overstress gib key been
evident the wheels could have been mag'd and there would have been no failure.

in my thinking this should probably be a mandatory step in preparing one of these engine's, i know it will be for me!

most any automotive machine shop can mag them for you for a very small fee, i would expect 20 bucks would cover the cost if you clean all the paint off
yourself around the hub area at least.

this is sickening, and appears to be an isolated instance, at this point. but i do wonder how many other flywheels are running with the start of a very small crack
and are waiting to fail.

but again i will probably be flamed for this observation, but oh well.

i like the heat Smiley

bob g

And last, Tim, the owner again, said on that same day: "bob g
I think that should be the first thing that should be checked on every engine .The casting flaw had bee filled in with what looked like silicone mixed with fillings. I  don't think it was the manufactor,probaly a caster who didn't want to lose a rupel. But i'm thankful,plus it's it's running as i type

Tim

Doug, MY two cents worth is that there several conclusions to be drawn from this:
1) You did not post accurately.
2) Tim reported, and there is no doubt, that an actual running failure was not very far away. Yet, even with all the problems, the flywheel was still holding together. This is truly a testament to the 4 to 1 engineered safety margin.
3) Indians should not be allowed to fit gib keys on export engines to the USA. Even one injury is one too many.
4)If there is any question as to the fitting of a gib key on your Listeroid (or Lister), please take the time to pull the flywheels, and make SURE the keys are fitted correctly. If there is any doubt as to the condition of the flywheel, have it magnafluxed, and replace it if necessary.
5)This incident is well described at http://utterpower.com/flywheel_danger.htm
6) Correct gib key fitment is described at  several places in this forum. Everyone should read (again) the comments starting with Rod's post on  January 27, 2007,
"gib key installation???"  Rod, okiezeke, peterako, hotater, Doug, and others reported very well on this subject. Hotaters "how to" on February 4, same subject, is probably "the" textbook answer to correct fitting.

 
There is just one other thing about personal safety, and it has been my "golden" safety rule for a long time. "If you think it may be unsafe, don't do it."



hotater

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Re: Accidents involving Listeroids?
« Reply #79 on: November 23, 2007, 01:55:36 AM »
.......good post.

For those without ready access to magnafluxing you can fake it to a point with gasoline and spay-on foot powder.   Clean all paint, rust, and debris and paint gasoline on the part, wipe off with a paper towel and immediately spray until evenly white with foot powder.  The cracks will show up as dark, wet lines in the white powder.

  It does NOT tell you how DEEP the crack is.  Some cast iron looks like honeycomb by this method, but they could be nothing but 'crust cracks'.
 
If there's just one crack, or if there's two opposed cracks, and especially if it has it's start at a sharp corner, you can bet it's deep enough to worry about.
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Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Doug

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Re: Accidents involving Listeroids?
« Reply #80 on: November 23, 2007, 06:26:59 AM »
"Doug, please be accurate. There are enough issues on this forum without ones like yours being posted.

If you have privileged information that the key fell out because it was tight, and the flywheel just got tired of being so tightly bound by a poor-fitting Indian gib key, please let us know."


I stand corrected.

I didn't re read the earlier posts.

I just looked over the pictures I have. From what I see it looks like about 25 % of the hub was cracked long enough for rust to creap in. The the rest is shiny looking, there are two voids one in the hub and one exposed by machining.

Maqybe a repost of the link too these pictures at Utterpower and the story there is a good idea too.
http://www.utterpower.com/flywheel_danger.htm
« Last Edit: November 23, 2007, 06:28:35 AM by Doug »
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sodbust

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Re: Accidents involving Listeroids?
« Reply #81 on: December 09, 2007, 01:30:36 AM »
Hello everyone!
Been some time since I have dropped by.

This list grabbed my eye, as with my oil crushing setup,, I have had over 600 farm visits from 49 states along with all of Canada in the past 2 years. Being a farmer raises around pto shafts, flat belts, and other high horse power farm hazards ,, having open belts, and crankshaft ends does not rattle me. I have had several visitors that were not danger awake and almost got tangled up in something running!.  So what I do now is have my son in law as my full time visitor safety officer, while I focus on my oil plant tour.  Yes I know, I could make some guards, but after the guests leave I just forget about it all over again.
The reason I m writing is I have a friend that this fall during harvest,, had a pto shaft come apart and almost beat him to death in just seconds.  He is still in the hospital and that has been going on now since the first of Oct 07. Broken arm, shoulder, pelvis, 5 ribs, messed up lung, both legs.  To top it off, just as he was getting better had a heart attack. So,, maybe guards on belts and shafts would be a good idea.. I can tell you now,, getting a jean leg wrapped up in a Lister 28/2 at 1000 rpms would not let go fast enough!

Sodbust

Stan

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Re: Accidents involving Listeroids?
« Reply #82 on: December 09, 2007, 01:53:57 AM »
Sodbust...I know what you mean about getting used to machinery.  As a kid, I was raised on a nut farm (go ahead, I'll wait while you all laugh).......We had a threshing/washing/sorting/roasting  building all driven by huge old electric motors driving belts, long shafts, gears and what not.  As a kid, I used to play among the running machinery, stepping from spinning long shafts, over flapping belts etc. all day long.  Never lost so much as a fingernail.  If it were today, they'd lock my parents up for criminal negligence or contributing to the delinquency of a minor or something if anyone saw.
Stan

Doug

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Re: Accidents involving Listeroids?
« Reply #83 on: December 09, 2007, 02:54:43 AM »
I work around large heavy equipement all day. I work around a lot of big heavy machines all day some with guards and sopmetimes I have to work inside the guard. I follow proceedures and know the rules. I work with people who know what they are doing and and are profesional

I stand in front of an 8 yard bucket sitting on the ground and the opperator can't even see me. His armoured cab is like driving with mail slots for windows still I know Roger and he's inside my head. He knows where I am  and where I will walk around the machine, the trust is complete.
I climb in that bucket for a lift and I know I am as safe as a new born in his mothers arms because Roger and I have worked together for years and we know what we are doing and anticipate ( as well as follow common sence safety rules ).
« Last Edit: December 09, 2007, 03:18:29 AM by Doug »
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rmchambers

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Re: Accidents involving Listeroids?
« Reply #84 on: December 09, 2007, 03:06:50 AM »
So the key Doug is to stand near you and not someone else.

I did some construction work when I was in college - Highly recommended  as an incentive to stay in school so you don't have to work hard the rest of your life  ;D

One of the guys I worked with was called "Junior"  we never found out junior to who since he was about 60.  He was a bit of a failure with people, broken marriage, couple of DUI's, and some other shady stories but he was a surgeon with a backhoe or a bulldozer.  To watch him work his magic grading a bit of hillside or moving a trenchbox with the backhoe was to watch a master at work.

Often times we'd find ourselves working in a trench putting down a storm sewer or water main and Junior would be up top in the backhoe with a bucket full of gravel.  I'd line up the pipe with the laser target and if it was low, I'd hold up the end of the pipe and give Junior a quick shake with my free hand, he'd gently shake the bucket inside the trench and let a small cascade of gravel come down, I'd tamp it under with the shovel and check again.  Everything ok and he'd get another thumbs up and put the rest of the gravel down.  Clambering up the ends of the trench was often a messy clumsy affair but Junior was the only operator I'd trust to lower the bucket down to me and knuckle the bucket up so the hook was reachable.  He'd lift me up and put me down on the safe ground with a smoother ride than an elevator.  I can't say I was in his mind but he always took good care of me.

You're lucky when you can work with people like that.

RC

Doug

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Re: Accidents involving Listeroids?
« Reply #85 on: December 09, 2007, 03:33:12 AM »
I knew a guy who would open tiny 3/4 inch ball valves with the lip of his scoop bucket ( R 1700 stone ) because it was easier that climbing out of the cab ;D

Another guy JL smash the cables I just spliced in the process of backing out of a sump where I just spliced them. Then dumped me in the sump because he was watching the smashed cables instead of me.

Gordy, standing on the hood of a Tamrock truck holding th severed ends of the big 4/0 he just severed with the ass end of the truck yelling " Doug the cable I hit is over here ". I just hoped it wasn't live....

It takes all kinds......

The best truck driver I ever seen was a woman named Rosie.
She's driving a truck down ramp with the big boss in the jump seat and he leans forward and says " is that the way we drive trucks around here one handed ? " She says no but I need the other to keep my boobs in my bra. Would I get disiplined if I asked you to F*** **F and mind your own buisness ? ". She got the ramp fixed and no one asks about her driving anymore. She's a Cheff ( actualy the company cheff down sized to truck driver ) and a 50+ Grandmother to boot.
What a lady!
 
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Stan

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Re: Accidents involving Listeroids?
« Reply #86 on: December 09, 2007, 03:55:38 AM »
OK, hows this!   One of the guys I know who works for a large open pit coal mine near here told me they trained 50 guys to drive the big trucks, and as a graduation ceremony had them pee in a cup.  25 of them fail the drug test!  After another guy  backed over a (thankfully empy) pickup with his BIG (able to haul 250 tons of coal) truck converting it to 12" of flattened steel and plastic, he was found to be high on crystal meth.  How'd you like to work around them all day eh?
Stan

hotater

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Re: Accidents involving Listeroids?
« Reply #87 on: December 09, 2007, 03:41:30 PM »
  I one time flew by bush plane into Stibnite Gold above Yellowpine, Idaho.  On the way over the mountains I ask the pilot how far from the landing strip to the mine truck maintanence shop.  He said, "I'll land on the haul road and taxi up to the door."  (!!!)
 I  *KNEW* those truck drivers!!!   :o

That was the ONLY landing strip and there had never been a totally sober haul-pak driver on the property!
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.