The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications

[EdDee]

Hey Glort,

I am pretty sure that the bulk of the cleanup from the WI takes place at precombustion chamber/injector tip level, as you have pointed out.. there is however, and I stand by it, a significant decrease in visible blow by after a water dose. Possibly the blow by is similar in volume after the cleanup to before, but the visible element changes. I suppose it could be a case of similar quantities of gas are making it past the rings, but in a better burnt state, hence a lower opacity, and giving the appearance of less blow by....?... Who knows?

Another factor to add to the equation is the possibility that, after a steam clean of the injector tip, better atomisation occurs, the burn is more efficient, the engine produced a bit more power for a given rack opening, the rack closes somewhat, less blow by due to the engine not working as hard possibly? Although, to produce the same amount of power for the given circumstance, there should be about the same amount of blow by evident, in volume certainly, but at a lower opacity.... so the first supposition kicks in as above... again... who knows?

I am running pretty much a constant water supply... It is plumbed in and only requires a stopcock be turned on to enable it. It has been put together in a manner that prevents the engine from being filled with water should it shutdown without shutting the tap first. I have a float bowl that has a constant water level below the centerline of the inlet manifold, where the water inlet nozzle resides, just outside of the valve stem per se... The engine draws in a coarse stream of water on each induction stroke, the amount of water inhaled is governed by the height of the level in the float bowl. To do a water "flood and flush" I simply choke off the inlet to the air cleaner with the palm of my hand. This causes an almost solid 1/8" dia stream to spray or be drawn into the inlet. As all of the piping is 1/8" dia from the float to the inlet, there is enough restriction of the water flow so that at full choke, other is little to no chance of hydro locking, this can only really happen at less than about 60 rpm, or maybe a bit less...

The air cleaner is an 'updraft' unit, so should there by any error, be water flow whilst stationery, the water will reverse flow out of the inlet manifold and drain from the air cleaner onto the paving, so that aspect is covered....

I have noticed that a saturated with water fuel burns with plenty of associated problems, as to why, I am not entirely sure, but my guess would be possible emulsification under high pressure. This would make it way difficult to light off, as the water changing state in close association with the fuel would drain heat required for ignition of the oil. Water inhaled separately through WI does not cause the same problems, as by my reckoning, there is more of a 'distance' between the fuel and the water/steam particles... possibly just my over simplistic view and reasoning, if you can give me a better explanation, I would love to hear it!

Water suspended in WMO is quite common, the worst I have seen is around 40%, yep, that right 20L out of 50L was boiled off to reclaim the base oil. Had I not done it myself, I would not have thought it possible. Fair enough, the oil in question looked like very milky coffee, but, nevertheless, it was something I witnessed myself. The oil was reclaimed from the RHS final drive of my Komatsu D62 dozer. Of a 50L total capacity, it required a ball hair under 20l to top it off once I boiled the water out. The oil in use was a straight 40w oil if I remember correctly... I could hardly believe it myself... Granted, the fuel oils I am using are nowhere near their saturation point, I would estimate, at max, around 500ml per 50l of oil, which is around 1% or probably less of water... not the end of the world as far as burning it goes, but plenty wet enough to allow acids in solution to start attacking IP innards and the like...

Anyways, again I ramble....

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed

[dieselgman]

Ever blown a head gasket on a water-cooled vehicle? That milky emulsification with the lube oil happens very easily and quickly in a running engine and I have seen and caused it to happen - (quite quickly) during water injection (through the inlet port), when the engine was not sufficiently loaded and heated up enough to flash it all directly to steam. I was a bit surprised and it IS a cautionary tale. Also, the fuel pump will have some trouble mechanically passing any amounts of water emulsified or not, (I am guessing that specific gravity differences of fuel vs water and the very tight mechanical tolerances within the pump plunger and barrel have a lot to do with it). Lubrication is a big issue for these things. It is hard to count how many seized pumps I have dealt with over the years. We go to great lengths to avoid any excess water or other contamination in fuel stocks. It may also be instructive to remember that the pump delivery is a fixed volume (at any given throttle setting) and only the engine governor repositioning the plunger rotation will change delivery rates.

Thanks for all the 'food for thought' in this discussion gents!

dieselgman

[EdDee]

Hey Glort,

Ditto, ditto and ditto, to you too Gman!

I run the WI pretty much all the time - unless I am playing around with the "what if's" - Which is quite often for me....Lol... I cant resist sticking my fingers into whirly-twirly things...LOLOLOL...

With the cogen setup, using a "constant" orifice for the WI, as it is now set up, it is quite difficult to get it to the "really nice" level of flow.... Because I dont have 100% stable loading, engine temps change, WI has to follow suit... I have set it up to a fairly good average, it is about optimum for 2.5kw electrical output as it now stands, but I am looking for a KISS way of regulating it (A carb wont work, airflow is constant) ... All I can think of is an electrical type gubbins, solenoid controlled via load, regulating a small needle valve...  Way to complex to set up and put together... (Yep, I can design and build it, even make it 8051 controlled, but that all falls outside of the KISS box!)

Regarding smoking: I can push a maximum of around 4.8Kw as it now stands - But at 4.8 we are definitely getting into the black smoke area - The power output has dropped from its original, as new condition, but it is now in spec for the max I wanted. Originally I was looking at 4-5Kw max as designed and found it could do over 6 with good rings/cyl/etc... The auto switchover trips across at around 20A/230V, TM1 can drive this, but this is at or around max... What I have found, is that WI certainly does little at low power output and works better as the power demand increases. I havent had any oil emulsification in the sump as yet, surprisingly! But here's where the snowball gathers some weight....  As soon as there is any fouling of rings/injector/whatever, the power output capability drops, TM1 starts smoking, soot and carbon start building up quickly, the rack opens more, the snowball gathers momentum - Because the target load of 20A/230V isnt met for the switchover.... At this point, I notice the lights are dimming and go and shove a good boost of water down the snout.... The snowball resets to the top of the hill, waiting for the next nudge...

I am almost at the end of this load of gunk, only about another 10L or so left to burn off... I think I will do a few days or so on dino and see how it compares...

Keep it spinning!!

Regds
Ed

Edit:
PS - The reason why I am not getting sump oil emulsification is probably because of the "different" dipper and oil pickup I have installed - The dipper only touches to about 5mm of weir depth. All water collected in the crankcase, along with 30 or 40W non additive oil, drops into the lower sump and does not accumulate to the level of the pump pickup, which in my case has been lifted by about 15mm to allow for this... I actually forgot about mentioning it earlier among the mods I have done...

PPS - RUG - I am, on the next batch of sump gunk oil I use, going to thin with 5-10% RUG as opposed to 20% Dino - What I have noticed, is that when TM1 starts to foul up, the "diesel knock" all but disappears. When there is a "normal" amount of knock, things run fine and well. This indicates to me that the injector/precomp is fouling to a degree that the burn rate is retarding.... By addition of the RUG, with a more vivescent flame front, the fouling rate might decrease quite a bit - Bear in mind this is WMO - The rug will be added for burn rate modification and not viscosity reasons. Probably, as it now stands, with lower chamber temps et al due to the slower burning WMO, the carbon is fairly soft and sooty, hence the ease it is flushed away by a good snout watering... The higher temps etc associated with RUG blending might cause the carbon to deposit at a higher temp/pressure, proving more difficult to remove.... Who knows? .... Lets suck it and see!!!

PPPS - Diesel Knock - Just put the last 10L Sump Gunk into TM1 and started him up for a long cogen run - Estimated to be around 10-12hrs for today - What I have noticed, in comparison to last night's shutdown, the diesel knock is somewhat louder - Air temp is around the same, plus or minus 5 degrees different, only thing that is different is the temp of the unit itself - The last 10L of fuel has gone in to top off the day tank, it hasn't in any way reached or made it through the fuel filter yet... Comments anybody? Cold fuel, cold engine, better ignition? ... This kinda screws up theories big time! (Also, Ali piston, CI sleeve... Clearance is most when cold....?)

PPPPS - Breather Vapor and Sound - Just popped out to check out TM1 during his run - He has been running solid since around midday, now around 4pm - I saw the cc breather was giving off a bit of vapor, so I videoed a quick before and after a water dose. The water dose consisted of choking off the air intake a bit and allowing TM1 to inhale a bit of aqua - I sustained this for about 5 secs. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to see any vapour because of the bright light, but you will notice a distinct difference in sound from the CC breather between the 2 videos. The first video has a "hollow" resonance to it and the second is way less - even though with the second video, the camera is directly in the path and facing the vent "snorkel" ... Check it out here: http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 CC Breather Sound Before and After 5sec Water Dose 20160222 Glort, I would love to hear your comments on this!

[EdDee]

Thanks for the comeback Glort,

Much appreciated!!

Take a look at my PPPPS on my previous post... a bit of a strange one, as I agree with you that WI is beneficial more on a long term basis than short term iro ring groove carbon buildup...

I previously stopped using RUG blending because of the weather temp variances we experience and also due to the variances (and the associated knockiness) I was getting with the WMO. It looks like I will be going back to a RUG blend to modify timing, whilst staying with the WI to keep things clean...

I am going to, after today or tomorrow, go back to a straight DINO for a while to get another, current, base line to work from. Because of all the weird and wonderfuls I am putting thru the beast on such a regular basis while looking for the "magic bullet" I lose track of origin, which is not a good thing... Its difficult to go better if you dont know where you were at!!

Back to the PPPPS - was quite an interesting one, there was miniscule, if any, difference in rack opening between the before and after, also miniscule temperature difference in the workings too.... Also, because the squirt of aqua I delivered was not particularly lengthy, the before and after loads were pretty much identical. Not often I get a clean result and only one variable in a test... Was a nice change!!

Keep it slurping....

Regds
Ed

[EdDee]

Hey guys,

I think I have found an excellent way to decarbon an exhaust and am thinking of patenting it...

The patent title would be "Ferro Resonant Carbon Removal - Long Cylinders"

It entails the resonating at the frequency of the length of exhaust involved. I have found, that when resonated at its empirical frequency, a large part, in the region of 90%, if not more, of the carbon is separated from the inner surface of the cylindrical curve due to the differing resonant frequencies of the carbon deposits and the base metal it is adhering to.

Whilst longer cylindrical sections resonate at lower frequencies, lengths of up to 3m have been resonated successfully and the carbon has been dislodged, to be removed easily by introduction of high to medium velocity gasses as a method for dispelling this troublesome solid.

Methods employed should be based on a variable amplitude method. Start at a low amplitude and increase until the required results are attained. Starting at too low an amplitude has little structural effect on the carbon and cylinder, but starting with too high an amplitude can cause failure of structural integrity, particularly to the cylinder and especially to its couplings and mounting points.

Highly sophisticated resonators can be employed with excellent results.... They will, of course, be required to deliver sufficient energy to cause resonance of sufficient amplitude.....

Keep it clean....

Regds
Ed

PS - The best resonator I have found so far is a 4lb hammer.... beat the snot outa the pipe while the engine is running... the exhaust gas blows all the crap out too.....

[mike90045]

......  PS - The reason why I am not getting sump oil emulsification is probably because of the "different" dipper and oil pickup I have installed - The dipper only touches to about 5mm of weir depth. All water collected in the crankcase, along with 30 or 40W non additive oil, drops into the lower sump and does not accumulate to the level of the pump pickup, which in my case has been lifted by about 15mm to allow for this... I actually forgot about mentioning it earlier among the mods I have done...........

I'm not sure how, with no/low splash, how the piston wrist pin (and the underside of the piston) an cyl walls get lube and cooling ?  I see you have an oil pump but does it get oil to all the areas needing it ?

[EdDee]

Hi Mike,

There is enough lube being splashed around, the inside case is dripping thoroughly after but a few secs... Also, there is evidence from crankcase temperature, that the lube is indeed getting to the hot bits, and plenty of it too.... the CC with this dipper, runs way warmer than the knife edge one... With the dipper only just breaking into the surface of the oil by a few mm, it seems not to agitate the lower reaches of oil in the upper weir too badly, hence no mixing of any condensed water droplets into the oil too any large degree (so far)... Another reason why I don't think I am getting any large quantity of water retained/mixing in with the oil is that with the higher temp that the CC is running, in conjunction with the air turbulence in the CC, the water is possibly being evaporated off at about the same rate it is being collected and expelled out the CC breather as vapours... I really can't say for sure, but thats how my twisted logic explains it... deemed true, until a better explanation comes along.... LOL....

Cheers
Ed

[EdDee]

Hey Glort,

Right.... Some replies, I will try and put them in the order you put them down...

While administering water, there is a small increase in vapour from the CC breather, this is attributable to the higher chamber pressure I presume, caused by the steam flash-off. Once you shutdown the water, within a few revs, the breather clears... The sound you hear is the opening and closing of the breather valve on the first video. The more the cc vents, the louder the cc valve gets... Kinda like an air hammer effect as it shuts quickly... The more blow-by, the more sound is given off(Quite irritating actually, I silence it with a foam block to slow the open/close down a bit and get rid of the hammer of the column of air...) So, in actual effect, the less vapour slip, the lower the noise level... Unfortunately, due to the bright light, you cant see the vapour exit difference, but believe me, it was there...

Carbon buildup - Maybe I am over critical with the carbon buildup - Who knows? Possibly the blow by I have is well within the acceptable limits of others' operation even when I feel it is excessive. As most of the harder running of TM1 is done evening and night, the work light on the chassis faces the vent, so it is quite visible to the naked eye when running... If I recall, there have been quite a few mentions of porting the CC breather to outside the the Gen sheds in other threads... Also, I very seldom have the carbon hammer caused by chunks breaking loose and hitting the piston before being expelled.....

Water injection into exhaust - Tried it... It works... BUT.... be prepared for one hell of a mess... Better to overfeed the engine side and steam blast the exhaust, less messy but to same effect, albeit it seems to take a little longer.... It is easier to sweep up the carbon expelled than to wash the driveway down.... Water into the pipe doesn't steam off nicely and condenses quickly to give some rather nasty and messy wet spray....

My exhaust is clogging a bit, there is one section that needs a good clean, but the outlet still "pulses" quite strongly, and while there is a small amount of back pressure, very little, at the header, I don't think it is excessive as yet. I have put a 90 degree slow elbow and short exhaust on with the pepper-pot muffler to test, there was little, if any performance difference, so I am pretty sure it is still ok.... Harmonic resonance... Could be, anything is possible, but I am able to section off the exhaust in 3 different lengths... Tried all 3 with no major difference, except of course sound coming out at ground/waist/tree level....

Carbon Buildup Comment #2 - Possibly I am over critical...Small amounts could be the culprit, probs on the injector/IDI chamber side.. By the end of today I should be out of WMO, just dregs, and I will start pushing through Dino and see it the higher combustion temp/lower ash and carbon residue makes a difference... I hate running Dino, smells awful in comparison to WMO...

RUG - Daytime temps can make a bit of a difference I have found to the speed of the combustion event - Don't be mislead by the "cylinder temp is 300C vs delta Temp of 15C to 40C day temp" - My best explanation(via my twisted logic) is in a loss-less compression cycle, %difference in energy of inlet gas is same %difference of energy of compressed gas, ie air starting at 0C (273K)then compressed, contains 273/313K% of the energy of air starting at 40C then compressed to a similar volume- ie around 13%. This energy shows as a temperature increase and if I remember from the energy equations, the temperature is about the only real thing that changes and that is in about direct proportion to the energy "concentration" involved, ie higher temp of unburnt gas and hence faster flaming of fuel ... but hey, don't quote me, I am probably way off base here and thoroughly out of my comfort zone...Lol...

I am not too wild about LPG trials... LPG costs a lot more compared to WMO and that goes against my stingy nature... Call me "Scrooge" if you must!

I also don't think its a timing issue - its a fuel burn rate issue - While advancing the timing would help, slowing the rpm might help more, allowing for a more complete in-cylinder burn of the sump gunk... Wait, TM2 is gonna be a 500RPM baby with some HEAVY flywheels for the pulsing... That's gonna be interesting! .... Come to think of it, the heavy oil engines ala marine, have a WAY lower rpm count than these babies we play with... And look at what they run on! .... Hmm...now the mind starts spinning on the other side of the scale... Those little 2-stroke diesels I used to play with in R/C and control line.... Wasn't the fuel mix something like 50% Diesel fuel/25%Lighting Parrafin/25%Ether? - Way too long ago to remember accurately....

Keep it spinning!

Regds
Ed

[EdDee]

Hey Glort,

Couldn't resist it yesterday.... I know my silencer was getting a bit grubby on the inside, nothing serious, just a tad sooty... I could see it in the time taken to bring the heat store to temp from an exhaust heatex POV... I fashioned a drop pipe from some heavy wall irrigation pipe and attached it to the exhaust outlet which is at about 2.5m altitude, feeding it down into a 50l plastic drum... I then pulled out the plug at the first exhaust T which is around a foot from the head and installed a temp hose fitting and hooked it up to the water mains. With the engine running at about 1/2 load, I then wound the water into the exhaust. Spectacular is a bit of an understatement iro  the carbon and soot removal... I must have dislodged at least a kg of black stuff with the pulsing of the water driven by the exhaust gas... as to the overall success of the clean out....reasonable.... Any difference in performance from an engine POV.... nothing much, Any difference to the heatex efficiency... hard to tell, but seems slightly better.... The main conclusion I can draw from this escapade.... if I was married, it would have resulted in instant divorce proceedings being instituted.... even after the exhaust was fully drained, there was still enough moisture and condensate in the system to cause wind borne sticky black shite  to be cast around a radius of about 10m for the next 1/2 hour of so...

Would I recommend this as an easy way to decarbon an exhaust.... nope, not if you are married..... but if you are single, no washing is on a line nearby, you love washing down paving and anything in reach, you have a hi pressure washer and oodles of time on your hands, have plenty of water and don't mind if you just look like you've come home from work at the coal mine... go for it!

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed

[Hugh Conway]

Ho Ed!!!!! If only you had a video of that one!!!!!
Never mind, the thought picture is quite sufficient  to produce a good laugh.
thanks for sharing your adventure. I will not try this one at home (or anywhere else either)

Cheers,
Hugh

[dieselgman]

I needed a good laugh today... Thanks! 

dieselgman

[EdDee]

Hi Guys,

An update for the D.P. (Divorce Proceeding) exhaust cleaning method....

After numerous showers, cleaning the driveway of as much black shite etc that I could, I cut open my home made silencer that is just after the heat exchangers in the exhaust line. The silencer is made from about  3 to 4" galv pipe, about 600mm long. The inlet and outlet to the silencer are 1 1/2" galv pipe with the inlet extending inside to within 3" or so of the outlet. The end of the inlet is blanked off inside the silencer and 3mm wide staggered slots are cut at 45 degrees in the sides of the pipe, against the flow every 50mm or so.

The slots were mildly clogged, with about 10% of the slot blocked by residue. One band saw task later, the slotted inlet was removed, and, after welding closed, the silencer was changed into an expansion chamber. The exhaust noise difference is minimal, just a slightly deeper note when under heavy load. Power difference before and after is negligible, back pressure difference is hard to discern, but one way you can tell is by a change in heat available from the heat exchanger.... This is also hardly different at all.

Now, back to the DP method.... Did it do a thorough cleaning job? ..... No! .... It removed loose carbon, but not baked on or stubborn carbon... A further reason to NOT use this method as a "quick" way of removing the carbon from the inside of the exhaust... (And of course depositing it on the driveway, house walls, cars in the neighbors' yard and finally as black ink on your divorce summons....)

Keeping it single....

Regds
Ed

[EdDee]

Hey Glort,

That pretty much sums up what I have experienced this side as well.... If you can catch the buildup quite early, it seems to be much easier to clean, hence the marked difference with my setup after a few mins of water squirting down the snout. It appears that, with carbon buildup over a time, the carbon "bakes" harder and is hence harder to remove. Catch it early/quickly and it blows away quite easily too... The aqua down the snout certainly makes a difference to the ass-end too... the exhaust on TM1 has more of a soot layer than a carbon layer. Just checked the logbook and saw TM1 is just shy of 2000hrs runtime... Actually thought it was a bit more than that, but my point is, "A major teardown and decarbon" is normally required every 1000hrs or so... I can almost guarantee that there is hardly any carbon buildup(relatively speaking) in the combustion and exhaust areas on TM1 as he now stands.

I have seen stationery diesel engines that have run fine for 1000+ or so hours, when stripped, are almost totally clogged in the exhaust area. Granted, the average farmer/non tech user will only strip or get someone to strip their engine if a problem becomes evident. The carbon deposition is almost logarithmic in progress... A little deposits over a long period, then when inefficiencies develop, a lot more deposits over a relatively short time.... A short burst of water does remove the latest deposits quite quickly, but the older and more "baked on" deposits take significantly longer time to remove.... WI does eventually remove these, but it does take quite a bit of hot, hard and heavy WI and running to remove them. (In my opinion, a better way than stripping the beasts down... The engine actually "works" its way clean... Sometimes though, things are just too far gone to avoid a stripdown....)

Again I ramble.....

Keep it clean....

Regds
Ed

[EdDee]

A really pissed off rant for the day....

A good friend of mine owns some property about 1/2hour drive from the city center. A brilliant place(smallholding) to set up an off grid lifestyle in years to come. He was building a house and got it livable with the basic amenities, just some internal finishing off to do. He moved in with me as a housemate(No romantic notions please gents... we are straight!) some years back in a move to cut costs as he became a bachelor again, with kids, and the traveling costs were heavy. After moving to town, he had a tenant take up occupancy to supplement his income and for security reasons...

To cut a long story short, his tenant skipped out on him owing him a bundle of cash, and worse still, because the place was unoccupied for what we estimate as a whole 2 weeks or so, was gutted by the local thieves, right down to half of the roof now missing, windows smashed, all internal dry walling gone, general vandalism and even the fencing was being cut and removed for relocation to the local scrapyard probably... All electrical fittings and copper has been torn out too....(Oh yes, all the portable equipment such as generators, pumps et al is also gone.....)

He is out there now, trying to salvage the last of the roofing and removable assets and bring it back here for safe keeping and possible sale....

It is times like these that I wonder some pretty nasty things to myself..... Its a good thing natural disasters cannot be manipulated by the mind and directed at offending trash.....

Cheers....

A very pissed off Ed....

[broncodriver99]

To cut a long story short, his tenant skipped out on him owing him a bundle of cash, and worse still, because the place was unoccupied for what we estimate as a whole 2 weeks or so, was gutted by the local thieves, right down to half of the roof now missing, windows smashed, all internal dry walling gone, general vandalism and even the fencing was being cut and removed for relocation to the local scrapyard probably... All electrical fittings and copper has been torn out too....(Oh yes, all the portable equipment such as generators, pumps et al is also gone.....)

That is tough for sure. I have seen my share of gutted houses. It always boggles the mind the amount of work a thief would go through for a relatively small payoff. A legitimate job would have paid more hourly.