The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications

[EdDee]

Hi Gman,

Thanks for that info... Much appreciated!

This Beastie of mine has no overload stop, the governor 'pull' maxes out and the pump doesn't quite make it all the way open when pulled to the max... In fact it stops about 1/8 to 1/4" shy of max opening... while I had it stripped down, I took a look at what could be done to go into overfuel mode to make starting a bit easier, and it looked like the governor travel had been limited internally, probably by shitty assembly and alignment.... It is on plan to clean up the innards a bit and make things able to hit the max, but that will be done on the next rebuild I reckon... I will of course, put a limiter on it for normal running.

Incidentally, Mike, I am running a barrel of diesel engine sump gunk again, the revs have dropped off a bit, the governor seems a bit lazy so as to speak with this stuff. The previous stuff I was running was petrol sump gunk, it burns much easier by the looks of it... I think the rev increase I was picking up might be a governor deficiency, while it regulates satisfactorily for my purposes, the burn rate defs seems to affect the, or be affected by, the governor setup. Under normal condition, I have about 5%variance in speed/volts output, up or down. The better the fuel, the lower the variance seems to be. Probably had a fair amount of dissolved petrol in the last batch, giving a higher cetaine, hence a more responsive/sensitive governor... I actually don't know, just guessing... I can say, this batch that I am running on is very difficult to start, but maybe there is is another gremlin that's crept in that I am not aware of. I do know that my temp exhaust valve job is not going to hold forever, possibly I should just swop heads and see if there is any change, I am sure TM2 wouldn't complain, he is still waiting on the replacement flywheel anyway(and as of yesterday, a replacement 10mm IP element)....

Oh well, should I take the afternoon off, or should I tidy up the workshop, or should I change cylinder heads.....? So many decisions.... so few ales....

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed

[EdDee]

Hey guys,

No workshop got tidied, no cylinder head change, no afternoon off either...but... I did make up a small 500ml fuel tank... why?

Well, its not so much a fuel tank as a fuel funnel... I knocked it up out of a cooldrimk bottle, some plumbing bits and other bitsoshit I had lying around in the workshop....

I am really keen on playing around a bit more accurately with fuel mixes.... This mini funnel-tank allows me to make up a sample mix and run it through the machine to see how it performs... With the wide variance there is with WMO, this is about the only way I can think of in practical terms to test the fuel...

TM1 has a T in his food pipe with a ball valve on each end... one side is permanently plumbed into the day tank, the other was used as a port for the onboard original tank, now removed....

I ran some dino through the system testing the joints, all is well.....

Now, a question to ask... in practical terms, what colour exhaust smoke is acceptable? (How much obviously depends on engine capacity and revs).. let's say running at 1/2 to 3/4 rated load. I am keen to hear, and even possibly see, what other members find acceptable from a smoke point of view... I am choosing a 1/2 load point as this seems to me to be about the average load I have seen run from my set, obviously it ranges quite a bit, but it seems a good starting point.... Also, what fuel are you running, and with or without WI?

Keep on spinning....

Regds
Ed

[buickanddeere]

About the only way to know is to plot fuel flow vs generator output. Find the point where increasing  % of fuel shows less % gain in power.

[EdDee]

Hi B&D,

Not overly interested in a power/consumption plot at this stage.... I am looking more at what everybody considers a reasonable exhaust gas colour - ie mild grey at 1/2 load or dark grey at 3/4 load or black tinge at 3/4 load....

Its a very lax/inaccurate thing, I am aware of this, and my "dark grey" could be your "black tinge"....Lol... just trying to get a feel for it...

For instance, at mid load, TM1 gives a very light grey, this dissipates within about 2m of the outlet....

It is NOT meant to turn into a "mine burns better than yours" fight.... it is just to get an indicator of what everybody's expectations and level of exhaust smoke are acceptable to each person individually... I, for one, think I am too critical of my exhaust emission clarity....(Oh, and to really throw a nice variable into it, when i turn on the water, on a cold day I get plenty of grey steam....same water rate on a hot day is only slightly visible....)

Keep on smoking....

Cheers
Ed

[mike90045]

color of smoke
 I try to run as clear as possible, I manually adjust the battery charging load for about a 10 min warming period, gradually raising the load to 2700watts, which still gives me clear exhaust.  The IR thermometer on the the ex pipe reads 370F and quickly drops if I reduce the load.

I find at 2700w, the exhaust is nearly odorless, unlike my other diesel, 3600 rpm genset, which, while clear, stinks at any load

[buickanddeere]

I was trying to say that stack colour is not a particularly accurate method to eyeball engine efficiency. Plotting fuel to output graphs to find the point of diminishing returns as fuel increases . Is the way to find the engine's "sweet spot". Compression ratio, injector spray pressure, fuel manufacture, injection timing , air temperature , coolant temperature , lube oil brand/viscosity and rpm will all vary smoke colour.

[38ac]

A CS engine tested at the factory was required to pull a full load with clear exhaust, that was of course on #2 diesel, not that goop you run
  An interesting little fuel system piece that the Indian's choose not to worry about is the rack limiter.  The 8/1, 6/1 and 5/1 engines were never meant to be run at full rack with the standard 7MM element, not even close to it. Full rack was used only as an aide to starting, 'twas called the over fuel position. It was achieved by flipping the fuel stop over. Once the engine started and came up to speed the rack limiter came back into play and limited (severely) the rack moment and thus fuel available for work. 

As B&D suggested there is a point of little return then on to no return when adding fuel and the point of diminishing returns starts before visible smoke.  Instrumentation would not  be all that hard to set up and run I dont think? Certainly educational for a person who is into such?

You had asked earlier if anyone had played around with larger diameter fuel pump elements?  I have I kept my trap shut because its one of those things that a person must think through thoroughly prior to the attempt because bad things, very bad can happen if he does not.  I will say that my experiments are based around the need for a good and repeatable fix for the laziness in the CS governor, not increased power.   I reasoned that a large element would require less rack travel  to achieve an increase in torque when called for.  I am not going to list particulars here because i don't want people going out and ordering an element that will destroy their camshaft lobe in 15 minutes if they dont do all the needed work.  I will say that my experiments with large elements for engine driving alternators are VERY promising. What has not been worked out is the required rack limit stops in the manner of a production quality salable piece. The element I am running in my 8/1 KOEL engine is,, uh let us say VERY large.  Governor response is as good as any modern set. More o nthis once the shop is back up running and details are worked out, I promise.

[EdDee]

Mike:

Thanks for the info, much appreciated, interesting to note your warm up period.... I am not quite so gentle with my beast... I slow run for about 20 to 30 secs, allowing the lube to splash around a bit then put it straight onto working load once its up to working revs....

B&D:

Agreed re the accuracy point, but it does give an indication of potential carbon buildup in upper cyl and exhaust... as well as the most basic indication of burn... surely, lube oil, ring condition etc come into it, but on a reasonably sound motor, well...... enough said!

38ac:

Noted re the lister spec... Them injuns have a built in rack limit on mine.... the governor hasn't got a hope in hell of pulling further than its max point!

I have seen, when running on gunk, a large element makes a difference to power output/smoke emission, not because of more fuel, but because of more fuel earlier in the injection stroke... a small element, although giving sufficient power over the entire rack to max position, was very smokey at exhaust... the larger element, giving a bigger portion of fuel earlier in the injection event.... although final power output was largely similar, larger gives a cleaner exhaust, or seems to anyway... my thinking is more efficient, but only marginally to slightly more.. The downside is that because of the greater volume injected earlier in the injection event, is that the motor running becomes more prone to knocking.(Getting tongue tied here, but I think you will get my drift)

Agreed re running out and getting a bigger element just to try and get more power.... something will break.... for sure! But, by the same token, a larger element seems to be more tolerant to lower fuel quality by the looks of it, but again, take care, bad things can happen quickly! By and large, I am willing to risk TM1 by trying an even bigger element still, do you know offhand if there are 11, 12, or 13mm elements available? My local guys get a glazed look when I ask for anything even remotely out of the ordinary...they swore blind that a 10mm element didn't exist, even when I dangled it in front of their probosci....

By and large, so far, my playing leads me to the following relationship, albeit very general and maybe over simplified:
Lower revs - you can go down in element size
Better fuel, or fuel with a higher cetane - go down in size
Lower quality fuel, or fuel with a lower cetane - go up in size.
Higher revs than rated....... don't go there....
But, if you go down in revs and down in cetane/fuel quality, element will probably be OK as standard!

In playing with the bigger bore elements, do you recall if there were any cam differences specd as far as travel etc?

Keep it pumping....

Regds
Ed

PS - I will admit, governor response does seem better with the larger element, so maybe its not my imagination....Lol...

PPS - design spec for me was 4 to 5 kw average - 4.4kw on diesel sump gunk yields medium volumes of black smoke, the same on petrol sump gunk yields grey to dark grey smoke, the same again on pure dino yields a light grey to clearish... but.... the sump gunks burn with less knocking and don't smell as bad as dino.... then.... the phase of the moon changes with the next batch of gunk, and everything is the other way round and upside down! Gotta love them listers......

[buickanddeere]

  When rebuilding the injection pump in my PHW1 Krisler Petteroid. A 8mm pump element and nozzle from a PJW1 was used. The idea is to inject the same amount of fuel but shorten the injection event duration. To have all the fuel in the combustion chamber with less piston travel down the bore than a 7mm element would.
  Sadly the project is under the bench. Just spent enough $$$ on a snowmobile today to have rebuilt, balanced and blueprinted the Petteroid.

[EdDee]

Hi B&D,

Agreed, the larger bore pump will give a greater percentage of fuel injection sooner in the power stroke - This will improve the usable burn due to a slower burning fuel, ie higher viscosity etc - the danger is getting too much of a knock developing when running on the more "approved" fuels. The listers are pretty forgiving in this area due to the low bearing loading on the big end, but too much is too much.... I am trying to find an 11 or 12mm element, but the locals just dont really know too much or are unwilling to look beyond the spoonfed catalog... Really frustrating!

It would be interesting to see a graph of injection volume vs piston displacement or iv vs crank rotation for the two IP bores.... now if we could tie that up to a prony brake with some accoustic/optical/thermal measurement devices and do some practical playing to work out a relationship between exhaust clarity/knock/power/temperature output measurement with varying grades of fuel.......hmmmmm...... oops.... one thing missing from the equation.... time to do it all...

Keep it spinning.....

Regds
Ed

[38ac]

 do you know offhand if there are 11, 12, or 13mm elements available? My local guys get a glazed look when I ask for anything even remotely out of the ordinary...they swore blind that a 10mm element didn't exist, even when I dangled it in front of their probosci....

By and large, so far, my playing leads me to the following relationship, albeit very general and maybe over simplified:
Lower revs - you can go down in element size
Better fuel, or fuel with a higher cetane - go down in size
Lower quality fuel, or fuel with a lower cetane - go up in size.
Higher revs than rated....... don't go there....
But, if you go down in revs and down in cetane/fuel quality, element will probably be OK as standard!

In playing with the bigger bore elements, do you recall if there were any cam differences specd as far as travel etc?

Keep it pumping....

Regds
Ed

PS - I will admit, governor response does seem better with the larger element, so maybe its not my imagination....Lol...

PPS - design spec for me was 4 to 5 kw average - 4.4kw on diesel sump gunk yields medium volumes of black smoke, the same on petrol sump gunk yields grey to dark grey smoke, the same again on pure dino yields a light grey to clearish... but.... the sump gunks burn with less knocking and don't smell as bad as dino.... then.... the phase of the moon changes with the next batch of gunk, and everything is the other way round and upside down! Gotta love them listers......

Ed,
as far as I know the elements range from 6 to 10MM in .5mm inncriments.
Butch

[EdDee]

Hi Butch,

Thanks for the info, by my searching and blank stares received down this part of the world, I kinda guessed it may be the case.... Would be nice to go up one size and see what the beast does....

I have been playing heatex games the last couple of days, I am finding that my heat store gets up to almost cylinder head temp and my cooling system starts to work overtime to try and keep the temp down. I have made up a bypass thermostat for the coolant heatex so that once the store gets to temp, the coolant heatex will be bypassed and isolated from the store to stop the store from back feeding heat into the coolant system...  hopefully I will get a chance to fit it tomorrow... the day temps have been 35 to 40C in the shade here, lately... and we are not even into the hottest part of the year supposedly for this area... certainly a crash course in cooling system design and beta testing... if it works now, it should work throughout the year.

Interestingly, I have found a soapy deposit forming on the inside of the coolant pipe works, it appears to be due to a too high concentration of PEG possibly.... I found it while I was re-plumbing the head coolant exit, I removed the outgoing elbow and installed a T... the end of the T now holds a temperature switch from a radiator so the electric fan responds way quicker than before, previously the temp switch was used on the top of the radiator, that one now controls a small upper fan on the radiator, it only kicks in when the radiator itself hits 80C... seems to work quite well...

Anyways, again I ramble...

Keep it spinning...

Regds
Ed

[buickanddeere]

There were some very informative pages on smokestack or somewhere with all the various Lister, petter and numerous other engine's injector body , injector tip, pump body and pump element info.
   I'll look for it if I don't forget.

[EdDee]

Thanx B&D, Much appreciated!

[38ac]

Lots of information on Peter Forbes pages,
 http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/front.htm