Author Topic: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications  (Read 291419 times)

mike90045

  • Mendocino Metro
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1594
  • Mmmm BBQ
    • View Profile
    • Mikes Solar PV page
Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #240 on: January 12, 2016, 03:44:18 AM »
Find a friendly tire shop and try their wheel balancer. Somebody should be doing the big rig truck tires. Their balance machine should have variable RPMs. 

Or a roll of filament tape ?

dieselgman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3189
    • View Profile
    • Lister Parts
Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #241 on: January 12, 2016, 05:23:57 AM »
The flywheel in question appears to have a number of troubling issues. The porous area around the hub could indicate some weakness there, and of course the balance issue with the rim voids is obvious enough. I would swap out that piece, anyone reputable with a concern for safety and reliability would do the same. We have seen many instances of the Indians burying such issues under their "finishing" bondo layers, eventually we hope to see someone truly enforce some QC standards. That is likely to require some serious investment due to the entrenched disregard for such things in the current overall business model. A lot of their cast work should be rejected back to the furnaces.

Lister/Petter was (and is currently) sourcing their engine blocks and other major castings directly from India, the reject rate in their Olathe Kansas plant was reportedly quite high for casting flaws and other defects. The price of doing business in the third world...
At the same time, I have seen a lot of very excellent iron and aluminum castings from the exact same sources.

dieselgman
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 05:32:06 AM by dieselgman »
ALL Things Lister/Petter - Americas
Lyons Kansas warehousing and rebuild operations

EdDee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 773
    • View Profile
Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #242 on: January 12, 2016, 06:42:05 AM »
Hi Mike,

Here is the spreadsheet with the info.... Have fun!!
http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Number Crunching

Re the filament tape.... Hmm.... I think I will go cross-ply 10 Layer first with about 100 wraps of radial just in case.... Lol... Also, have a flywheel blow up on a balancer.... the "friendly" shop wont be friendly any longer.... This is a small town, I see tar and feathers in my future.....

Regds
Ed
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 06:47:20 AM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

mike90045

  • Mendocino Metro
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1594
  • Mmmm BBQ
    • View Profile
    • Mikes Solar PV page
Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #243 on: January 12, 2016, 06:55:55 AM »
Wow, that's a spreadsheet !   thanks for sharing

So, was that the flywheel off the old engine, that had been running, or the replacement - i'd guess it's good for 600rpm ?

EdDee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 773
    • View Profile
Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #244 on: January 12, 2016, 07:14:51 AM »
Hi 38/Gman,

You guys pretty much mirror my sentiment - with the boss area weakened in the gib key area, this WILL give problems from a fixing perspective later on - it is not a dangerous flaw as such, but it will not hold the gib key in place with sustained running/pulsing long term. The porous CI will collapse over a period of time and the flywheel will loosen.

The rim on the other hand, is or could be dangerous - the section of cold pour/inclusion is fairly well bounded and can be visually discerned - up to around 5-600 RPM going by basic experience here, this rim should be ok. Above that and it would certainly be recc'd to speed test at the very least.  Speed testing at 2-2.5x the rated rpm would be sufficient. Herein lies a problem - There is nobody that I know that will be able to do this locally, and precious few that would do it nationally. I have been involved with destructive rotary speed testing(in the abrasives industry) in the past, and am familiar with the forces and impacts involved when turny bits go bang... I can assure you, it is loud, spectacular, frightening, scary.... bear in mind I repair guns for a living... they don't scare me.... those other things do!!!!

Speed testing of an item like this.... well lets just say that I worked out the energy involved with what would happen if one of my balance weights de-bussed from the flywheel - 170g traveling at 100km/hr... approx 15 grain to the gram ... balance weight of 2550 grain  .... 100km/hr approx 28 m/s .... now a 9mm para is around say 1000ft/s with a 120grn head... /3 to give approx m/s is 333m/s... around 10x faster than the weight... but the weight is 2550/12 ie 21x heavier than the 9mm head.... so roughly, very roughly speaking, the 170g weight will be leaving the wheel at about double the energy of a 9mm para.... and thats only 170g.... now.... the mind starts boggling when you envisage a 10 000g chunk of ci flying .... artillery school anybody?

Kinda scary huh....

I have dropped pics to the supplier, lets see what he says....

Keep it flying...

Regds
Ed

12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 773
    • View Profile
Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #245 on: January 12, 2016, 07:16:02 AM »
Hi Mike,

That pic was the flywheel off the new engine, TM2, I havent run it yet....

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

38ac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2327
    • View Profile
Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #246 on: January 12, 2016, 12:54:39 PM »
Ed,
I knew from reading your posts that you are very much smart enough to not spin that flywheel up inside the shop or even near anything that could be damaged so I didnt make that comment so as to not insult your intelligence ;)
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

EdDee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 773
    • View Profile
Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #247 on: January 12, 2016, 03:27:25 PM »
Hi 38Ac,

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Not to worry... no harm done.... was just a tad worried someone, somewhere, sometime.... You know how the story goes!! (Everything read on the internet is 100% true isn't it?)

I agree though, it would be something to see in slo-mo.... Picture the scene.... 1/2 a flywheel doing a boomerang looping flight at 100km/hr slowly disappearing over the horizon.... The camera pans back to a 550kg lump of wildly gyrating Indian cast iron with 1 1/2 flywheels as it does a foxtrot cum tango across the property after breaking loose from its mountings..... and in the background a quiet voice says....."Bugger.......I woznt expectin' dat to appen!!"

But..... On another note.... Just got word from the supplier, a replacement flywheel will be with me as soon as they can freight it!  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Keep it smiling....

Regds
Ed
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 03:30:07 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 773
    • View Profile
Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #248 on: January 14, 2016, 10:11:54 AM »
Hi Guys,

Couldn't resist it.... No CC Door should be without a bit of custom "bling"....

http://www/warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 CC Door Bling 20160114

Yep, hand tight is good enough.... did a short run and no oil was seeping, lets see how it does on this evenings' cogen run....

Keep it blinging!

Regds
Ed
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 773
    • View Profile
Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #249 on: January 14, 2016, 03:13:24 PM »
Hey Guys,

Can never have too much bling.... After making the bling-nuts, I couldn't resist getting my son to paint the inner of TM1's house.... If he's gonna look like Mr T, he deserves a nicer looking pad!

About all that I wanted to play with has now been played! I think TM1 will get a final touch-up of paint, and then be relegated to "cart-horse" status.... he is about to become a draft animal now, his son, TM2 will be the next toy on the bench.... Cant decide the route to take though, would like TM2 to be a more "portable" unit, lower RPM, say around the 500 or so, double flywheels maybe.... just cant decide.... possibly run him as a slave genset, coupling him in phase to TM1, or as an inductive, assisting, non-phase sensitive gen unit.... Suggestions?

The final paint-job on TM1's house - http://www.warriorpaintball.co.za/private/TM1 Closure Painted Inside 20160114

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed

12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 773
    • View Profile
Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #250 on: January 15, 2016, 02:21:51 PM »
Ed

there was a guy on this forum years ago that used to work in the oil industry as a chemist If memory serves me correctly.

And his comments on the distillation of any oil was that it is a very dangerous undertaking. And you would eventually have an explosion of you still.
The cracking of oil is fraught with unseen dangers. But I also have considered trying to do it. Just saying watch your self or you could find yourself in a situation like you talked of with the broken flywheel or grind stone flying through the air only this time the propulsion will be from exploding petrol. and the debris will be the lines or tanks the oil is being boiled in.

Bill swan

Hi Bill,

Thanks for your concerns, its great to know that other people are looking out for you!!

I am aware of the dangers and concerns regarding the distillation and fractionalisation of liquids, it was, whilst working in a lab, that I got "a bit of" (yeah, I know, a bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing... but at 50+ I still have most of my body parts and intend to keep it that way!!) practical experience with it... It is certainly not something that can be taken lightly and frivolously, 300C and above kinda makes living things die.... especially if coated thoroughly.... the quantities involved do not make much difference to the dangers involved either, something that is often overlooked. But, if you look at it closely, approach the problems cautiously, and take note of the dangers and risks involved, it can be done..... I would rather personally be working on an oil still than let some people loose with a chip fryer.... ::) ::) ....

While on the note of oil distillation, I might have come up with a dandy little self feeding, continuously operational oil still design, powered by a mini heat exchanger at the first exhaust bend.... I will run a few temperature tests this weekend probably and see if it will be a viable undertaking.... Key aspects must be: Safety, Safety, Production Rate, Safety, Ease of Cleaning, Safety, Convenience, Safety, Ease of Startup, Safety, and of course....Safety!

I am not looking at fractionalisation at this stage, simply boiling off and condensing to see tar and solid removal will be a success, and what quantities can be processed on the micro scale.......

Of course, there is always an ulterior motive, I need to replace the first exhaust bend with a "T" joiner plugged on one end anyway to facilitate inspection and decarboning should it be required..... Kinda suits the need for the place to put an EGT probe in too....

Keep it Spinning.....

Regds
Ed

12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

buickanddeere

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 807
    • View Profile
Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #251 on: January 15, 2016, 04:16:10 PM »
Going to loose a lot of btu 's if the light ends are vented to atmosphere instead of into the engine's air intake. Of course run away protection will be required.
   

EdDee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 773
    • View Profile
Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #252 on: January 15, 2016, 05:26:03 PM »
Hi B&D,

Plenty losses indeed, I am expecting that by and large... I am just keen to see what ratio gets broken down to gas/liquid/solid at STP ... If too much of the light ends can't be condensed at STP and too much goes off into the wide blue yonder, the process will be a bust as far as fuel processing goes.... I am also not keen at all to catch and compress LPG or similar, the rate of production of gaseous product, I am hoping, will be pretty low once condensed... Also, this entire process will be performed in a very well vented and open area (relatively speaking), so heavier than or lighter than air byproducts will not accumulate at all.... I am also defs gonna make sure that TM doesn't snort it in... Last thing I want is a runaway situation....

As to energy losses for the heating of the goop, I will be pulling that from the first foot or so of hi temp exhaust gas, so it won't cost me anything in the grand scheme of things I don't think... particularly as there is still a fair amount of residual heat lost from the last 4m of stack anyways, and that is after I have reclaimed as much heat as I can currently use with the existing heat exchangers.... if the goop doesn't process nicely, there are two paths open to me, either scrap the distillation bits completely and plug the T piece or, possibly better, remake the mini boiler from stainless(its a small length of pipe, so no big thing) and process and distill good old H2O... Distilled water is always handy, from an aspect of long term storage for drinking, to use in battery cells....

Keep it spinning....

Regds
Ed
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 05:30:14 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

EdDee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 773
    • View Profile
Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #253 on: January 16, 2016, 11:36:43 PM »
Hi Guys,

Part one of mini still is now in place...

I pulled off the first exhaust elbow today and replaced it with a 2 1/2" T piece... Took a bit of fancy guestimations in the length department to get it all back together... actually it was no real biggie, just had to thread some custom length pipe nipples to keep exhaust in the right place... there was not too much room for error as the pipes we were mating to have plumbed in heat exchangers for the house... just took a bit more time than I wanted, measure thrice, cut once!

At the end of it all, all I have to show for it is an itchy and scratchy body after unwrapping the fibreglass lagging which is well cooked and brittle by now... its amazing the places you develope itches when that fine stuff blows around.... :o

After we got the T in place, I installed a reducing bush in the top end, at 90 degrees to the exhaust flow, and stuck the pyrometer in to get a feel for the EGT we would be playing with under normal conditions.... At 50% load(10A@220V), the EGT hovers between 350 and 390 C... at near full to full load(20A@220V) we end up at around 550 to 600C.... These measurements were taken at about 10" from the exhaust flange, right where we will position the boiler bottom probably.... The thermocouple was encased in a 6mm steel line and lowered into the gas stream, readings were taken after the temperature stabilised....

While I had the pyrometer going, I looked at the effect of WI on EGT and head temperature... Quite interesting...

Under normal running, 4L per hour or so WI, the above temps were taken. Start heavy flush, 3-400 ml per minute, and a sudden spike in EGT is noted, probably due to better heat conduction and transferring heat from the combustion chamber into the exhaust system. Maintain the hi flow, and EGT starts dropping rapidly as the heat is carried away from the motor internals to the exhaust proper... After going back to 4 to 5 L / hr, the EGT is about 5 to 10 degrees hotter than previous, once stabilised.... After an hour or so, the EGT has declined to the original measurements taken... I surmise that this is due to a small soot boundary layer that forms under normal running conditions... The WI boost is not really long enough to influence the head and coolant temps to any great degree... if I run a medium amount of water through the system, around 8L/hr, sustained for 2 to 3hrs, the head and coolant temp drops by about 10 to 15 degrees and maintains... this is around 125ml per minute if I calculated it out right... EGT climbs initially, then drops down and holds at around 250-300C... This tells me that there is little to no water in the exhaust stream, all is converted to steam in the cleaning process.... (Daytime air temps were around the 20 to 22C for all you purists that want to work out the exhaust energy capacity...)

Another interesting thing I noted, little to zero carbon buildup in the exhaust proper, in that first stage of heat exchanger that I really expected to clog up.... Note: 1700hrs plus, of questionable fuel and varied load conditions.... interestingly, barring the dark colour, the texture of the internal galvanising on the pipes can clearly be seen in the longitudinal weld area... this tells me that there is less than .2mm or so of buildup ... absolutely awesome! With this performance, it is actually a waste of time to make the exhaust that brushes may be inserted for cleaning.... why bother?

Tomorrow I will be doing the itchy and scratchy thing again.... re-lag the header pipe with fibreglass tape..... I wonder if my son is coming to visit.... I am sure I could play waiter and ferry the ales while he lags it..... I wonder if he will catch on to my sly trickery...

Right... enough said....

Keep on scratching....

Regds
Ed
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 11:48:33 PM by EdDee »
12/1 750RPM/9HP Roid 5kVA- WMO Disposal/Electricity & Hot Water Gen
12/1 650RPM/8HP Roid 4.5kVa - Demon Dino
Chinese Yanmar - Silent Runner with AutoStart
Classic Komatsu 1963 Dozer/Fergusson 35 Gold Belly ...
Bikes,Cars,Gunsmithing & Paintball...Oh yes, a 5Ha open air Workshop to play in!

dieselgman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3189
    • View Profile
    • Lister Parts
Re: The Listeroid Chronicles-WMO and Other Listeroid Modifications
« Reply #254 on: January 17, 2016, 12:47:58 AM »
Just watch out for breathing in any of that itchy scratchy stuff... known to cause lung cancer for sure. A close-fitting respirator mask would be well advised.

dieselgman
ALL Things Lister/Petter - Americas
Lyons Kansas warehousing and rebuild operations